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About an hour ago, i emailed KirkB, regarding our feelings on the position one's hands should be in, when doing Bubka's on a High-Bar. Kirk feel that your hands should be natural, palms pointing out, thumbs pointing towards eachother. I've always felt, that one's hands should be in the position that they would eventually get to during a full vault, once the pole bends and turns, outwards. For a righty, such as myself, I would place my left palm, pointing away from me, but my right palm, pointing towards me. It makes me feel like i have more control, and i also feel that it better simulates the feelings you should achieve on the pole, during a full vault.

KirkB wrote:You see, without intending to, what you've done is to artificially force more of your body weight and swinging motion to your BOTTOM ARM - which is the one that's hanging "correctly", with thumb pointing inwards. This is due to the way your arm muscles and bones work. In this drill, they're WEAKER when you hang "unnaturally". THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU NEED TO DO! What you need to do is to focus on the actions of the TOP hand/arm, to simulate putting most of your weight on the TOP HAND, and swinging from it. (However, with the exception of the lead knee, treat this drill as a symetric one - equal weight on each hand. Trust me on this for now. Once you actually start doing it correctly, THEN we can debate the ADVANCED technical details of this.)

My email, read as follows:
hey Kirk, could you explain to me a bit more, as to the advantages of training Bubka's on the High Bar with the same grips (thumbs pointing towards eachother)??? You and PP are the only 2 people that have EVER told me not to do the grip i was using (simulating the pole-grip) I told you my reason for it, simulation the pole, and you and PP said that it could cause my body to 'twist'. I see your logic, but my only thing is: if your body could twist in the bar, it could just as easily twist on the pole. and if that's the case, why shouldn't you train with EVERY simulation possible?? I just feel that, if you can counter it on a full vault, you can counter it on the high-bar.

You stated that i should do 'your' grip for a while, then once i get them down, properly, to switch to my prefferd grip. I'll give it a shot, but i'm still at a loss as to the real advantages of your grip. would you mind better explaining it a bit??

I just remember, in the past, having difficulty doing the bubka's AT ALL, with your reccomended drip. that's when i'd keep hitting my shins into the bar. It wasn't until i started doing my current grip, that i could do them...'more properly'. I just watched some footage of other people doing them (they all had 'my' grip) and i saw the things that they were doing, that i wasn't, so I know what to fix. I'm just still torn between grips, if you will haha.

SO BASICALLY...what do all you guys think????? we'd all love to hear

joebro391 wrote:You stated that i should do 'your' grip for a while, then once i get them down, properly, to switch to my prefferd grip.

I'll give it a shot, but i'm still at a loss as to the real advantages of your grip. ...

Just a slight clarification ...

I did NOT say "... once I get them down properly, to switch to my preferred grip."

There is only one way to do the Hinge/Whip Drill. This is my drill that I developed and did thousands of times. I ABSOLUTELY know the right way - the only way - to do them. (Remember the word "absolutely", 6P? hehe)

Re the Bubkas, those are NOT my drill and it's for THAT drill that I suggested that 6P ask everyone else for advice. It's not a drill that I did, and quite frankly, I don't think it's all that great. It's too lethargic - it lacks SPEED!

Personally, I'd rather you do cleans, starting with very low weight. SPEED and TECHNIQUE!

Could it be that it's only a popular drill because of its name? [ducking from incoming!]

I hope we're clear on these being two distinct highbar drills?

Kirk

Another good drill is to run up to the highbar, grab it, and THEN swing. (Similar to on the rope.) The advantage is that you swing IMMEDIATELY, rather than waiting for the rope to swing a bit first.

I did this "running start" highbar drill occasionally, but not nearly as often as the Hinge/Whip drill. It's a good drill for practising keeping your arms fully extended at the start of your swing. PUSH/SQUEEZE. Try them both.

I actually prefer the highbar version of this drill to the rope version.

If you can visualize why it makes sense to grab the bar with thumbs pointing at each other in THIS drill, then it might make more sense as to why you need the same grip for the Hinge/Whip drill.

Kirk

Bubkas were part of our lifting routine last year, and I did them both with the staggered grip, and with the thumbs pointing towards each other. I found the thumbs pointing towards one another to be a bit easier, and a bit more controlled, since with a staggered grip I feel you have to resist spinning to a neutral grip (such as when you take off). I never felt like it really simulated a vaulting grip that well, since its just a straight bar, and the vault is such a dynamic situation. I don't think its going to be a big detriment to you to do bubkas with that grip, but in my opinion, its an exercise, and exercises are done to strengthen movements for the vault, not simulate them. You wouldn't bench press or hang clean with such a grip would you? I hope this adds additional insight, and I hope the weather is better wherever you are today. (34 and raining here)

never felt like it really simulated a vaulting grip that well, since its just a straight bar, and the vault is such a dynamic situation.

Like it.

You wouldn't bench press or hang clean with such a grip would you?

Love it.


Bubkas are for strength. They can not be performed all that quickly, but they are a very good work out for your extension muscles. Hang cleans are essentially the same thing, except there is no abdominal strength involved (compared to Bubkas). However, with low weight, you can do them very quickly. Combine these two excercises with power sit ups, and you have an excellent vaulter's strength work out.

KirkB wrote: Re the Bubkas, those are NOT my drill and it's for THAT drill that I suggested that 6P ask everyone else for advice. It's not a drill that I did, and quite frankly, I don't think it's all that great. It's too lethargic - it lacks SPEED!

oh, alright, i thought you meant bubka's and was just using "your own terminology". I get what you mean now

iamthewalrus wrote: You wouldn't bench press or hang clean with such a grip would you?

YOU BET YOUR BACKSIDE, I WOULD!! hahaha, just kidding, just kidding. i understand what you mean too

iamthewalrus wrote: ...and I hope the weather is better wherever you are today. (34 and raining here)

eh...it's more around 45, but it raining here too and the wind is gusting 20 miles-an-hour

thanks for clearing that up fellas

6P, now that we're clear on the Hinge/Whip Drill on the highbar being distinct from the Bubka highbar drill, here's how I would rank the ways to excercise the EXTENSTION vault parts ...

1. Hip Circle Shoot to a Handstand on highbar.

2. Bubkas on the rings - as long as you do them QUICKLY thru the bottom swing part. (No concern over how to grip - the rings will twist to a natural hanging position; No concern over hitting the highbar.) On rings, you can extend straight up, thru your CoG. You can't do that on highbar, since the bar's in the way. You found that out the hard way!

3. Extensions on a rope. (A bungee-type rope is even better! What's that called, again?) Just hang upside down as if you're going to climb the rope. Then extend.

4. Roll back on the floor to your neck, then extend to a handstand.

5. Extensions on a tramp, from a back-drop position. If you do this right, you can do quite a few reps in a row without straying off to the side of the tramp.

6. Cleans (These are NOT recommended for high-schoolers, since there's so many other gymnastic movements that are available for this).

7. Bubkas on highbar. (The reasons I've ranked this one near the bottom is because of the issues we've discussed. (a) Hitting your shins. (b) Doesn't shoot you thru your CoG. (c) Reverse grip confusion. (d) Too slow of a movement - doesn't simulate the action on the pole very well.)

8. Extensions from the bottom of a pool, with someone standing on the diving board (or corner of pool) holding the pole. Put a hula-hoop at surface level and try to shoot thru it for even more fun/challenge.

In order of fun-ness, I like #1, #5, #3, #4, #8, #6, #2, #7. But I gave the Bubka rings drill second from top shelf here because (as long as they're done fast enough) they quite closely simulate a real extension on the pole. But #1 gives you the FEEL of the POWER (speed x strength) in the extension. #2 will NEVER give you that same FEEL, no matter how fast you do them.

#8 is fun and useful, but impractical. If you're doing this during your training time, then you're wasting too much time in the pool. But if you're in the pool cooling off anyway (say, AFTER practice), then it's kinda fun.

Does anyone else have any more EXTENSION DRILLS to add?

Kirk

wow, thanks KIrk, that's a huge amount of help and drills. thanks BG haha. The only thing i'm uncertain about is "cleans" but i'm gonna look them up on youtube in a second. The other thing, is the trampoline-drill. I assume you mean, stand facing one way, jump back (landing on my back, and kinda roll back (like the roll to handstand drill) but without your hands. I think someone showed me this, like a year ago, and i couldn't get the hang of it (but i'm in much better shape now

ALSO, kirk, i might reccomend posting this in my "blog" thread. I'd do it, but i wouldn't want to take credit for it haha. I'll just quote it, if you think that's kool. or you could post it. I think i'll just make a new post "entitled gym drills" and quote you haha. thanks for everything Kirk . -6P