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Can anybody help me understand more completely the dangers of using a wide grip? I see people I vault with use these enormous grip widths, but I never know how to counteract the argument of increased pole control well enough to convince them or their coaches... I know that a narrow grip helps pole/ground angle somehow, but is that because it harbors a free take-off? How? Can somebody please help me out?

In my experience a wide grip slows down the swing. Shoulder width or slightly wider is ideal.

my understanding and experence with a narrower grip is that it does not allow you to block out with the left arm. more importantly it allows you to "open up " at take off and drive your chest into the pole better. also you are able to swing much easier and in my opinion you are able to close off better and come off the top with ease! now this is just what i know from my experience and watching and helping coach other athleates in the same manor. i have seen first hand that a wide grip stops a long swing and makes it near impossible to keep from tucking and shooting. i know that it can come close but it is much harder so swing and even more difficult to come off the top

it allows you to rock back more comfortably and generate more energy in your rock back. a narrow grip can also help you push off the top of the pole better because your hands are closer so you can use 2 hands for a longer period of time and generate more energy off the top of the pole.

frequent flyer wrote:it allows you to rock back more comfortably and generate more energy in your rock back. ...

Ummm ... there IS NO ROCKBACK!!! Seriously!

Watch Isi, or Lukyanenko, or Hooker. They don't have rockbacks. They swing thru to their extension and then onto their fly-away --- in one continuous motion.

(I don't like how Lukyanenko and Hooker drop their lead knees - but that's an entirely different story.)

frequent flyer wrote:... a narrow grip can also help you push off the top of the pole better because your hands are closer so you can use 2 hands for a longer period of time and generate more energy off the top of the pole.

I agree with this part of your post. It's a very minor point though, compared to the importance of swinging and inverting in a continuous motion.

More importantly, when you plant/jump, the narrow grip prevents you from stretching forwards too much, and it keeps your shoulders more square to the pit. And also (as others have stated), you won't be inclined to press with your bottom arm as much. Watch Lukyanenko on this. He has quite a narrow grip.

Kirk

powerplant42 wrote:Can anybody help me understand more completely the dangers of using a wide grip? I see people I vault with use these enormous grip widths, but I never know how to counteract the argument of increased pole control well enough to convince them or their coaches... I know that a narrow grip helps pole/ground angle somehow, but is that because it harbors a free take-off? How? Can somebody please help me out?

I think a number of things can happen during take-off with a wide grip depending on how you do it.

First, I think your top arm is more prone to being too far behind at take off causing you to be under a lot.

If you manage to keep your top arm in a good position, you're going to end up stretching your bottom arm to maintain your grip on the pole. This will probably pull your body sideways if you have a really wide grip.

As far as the pole-to-ground angle, here's a little experiment:
Stand up sideways in-front of a mirror with your hands straight up (straight arms). Pretend there's an imaginary line that connects both your hands. Slowly bring your arms apart with your arms straight. Notice how after about 50-65cm of separation between your arms(depending on how tall you are), that imaginary line between your hands starts dropping rapidly. It's a little bit different with the pole since you're in a different position than you are during this experiment but it's all about angles, the wider you grip, the shorter your distal reach. 50-70cm is ideal (depending on height again), as it allows you to maintain control while also permitting you to push the pole as high as you can during take-off, thereby increasing the pole-to-ground angle!

Are there any negative aspects to having too narrow of a grip?

Not being able to control the pole when carrying it or planting it. What the great stiff polers would do is use an enormous grip width until they planted. As they planted they would slide their hands closer together... and they almost touched eachother. Actually, I am unsure as to why this aspect of stiff poling has never emerged in the flexible pole era. Why wouldn't this work for a flexible pole? Or maybe it's just not worth it?

powerplant42 wrote:Not being able to control the pole when carrying it or planting it. What the great stiff polers would do is use an enormous grip width until they planted. As they planted they would slide their hands closer together... and they almost touched eachother. Actually, I am unsure as to why this aspect of stiff poling has never emerged in the flexible pole era. Why wouldn't this work for a flexible pole? Or maybe it's just not worth it?

Moving hands is not allowed by rules. I don't know when it starts, probably with introduction of flexible poles. Someone older maybe can provide more info.

Wow I learn every day... So would accidental sliding be considered a miss?

Pogo Stick wrote:Moving hands is not allowed by rules. I don't know when it starts, probably with introduction of flexible poles. Someone older maybe can provide more info.

For about a hundred years, it has been against the rules to shift one hand above the other (climbing the pole). Other than that, I have never heard of a rule against a hand shift. I come from Missouri. You've got to show me.

I wonder if planting with both hands touching would change the way the pole bends. I remember Tim was messing with one handed planting before.