Trail Leg- Tuck or Petrov?

[vault3rb0y]

A case study of one vaulter will never prove anything, even if Tim did vault higher than bubka, hypothetically.
for example, lets assume..

"I hit a free take off and keep a straight trail leg to the top of the pole and jump 14, but my competitor is 2 feet under and balls up, but jumped 16'. His technique must be better than mine."

Besides, bubka could have held at 4.80 and pushed pretty freakin high if he wanted to. But he wouldnt have gone much over 6m and would have a hard time with his timing on the top of the pole. Look at his jumps at the '94 olympics, he had so much energy in the pole he couldnt even fully align with it before it shot him over 19'8". Balling up might help you line up with the pole a little easier, but its pointless to argue which would add more energy into the pole.

[altius]

You are spot on 3po, but where were the '94 olympics??

[vaultman18]

You think you are more explosive, but you're not. By tucking at any point, you're absorbing energy that should have been put into the pole.

http://polevaultpower.com/6mclub.php

if this is not explosive, then how does tim mack have a higher push off than bubka and he bends his trail leg?

We have been down this road. So let me sum-up. Mack cleared 6m+ one time Bubka 40something. You can't be serious can you? If the goal was to jump 6.0m then yes everyone who has done it would have the best technique. But the goal is to jump higher than Bubka or Yelena. And do you know what the best part is? The same technique works for Beginners all the way up to Bubka and Isi too! (what a plug)

As an athlete if you choose to ignore what Alan (and Roman 6.40 thread and continous chain for that matter) have posted and written, no big deal your choice. What a shame though. But if you do want to be the best that you can possibly be I say listen-up and study the great information that Alan has provided (on the this site and in the new book)!

[vault3rb0y]

You are spot on 3po, but where were the '94 olympics??

was it even the olympics now that i think about it.... must have been world championships because olymp. record is 19'6 or so, ironically from Tim Mack lol. I just watched neovault 3 though and remembered that competition, haha and guessed wrong.

[spike gibeault]

You think you are more explosive, but you're not. By tucking at any point, you're absorbing energy that should have been put into the pole.

http://polevaultpower.com/6mclub.php

if this is not explosive, then how does tim mack have a higher push off than bubka and he bends his trail leg?

We have been down this road. So let me sum-up. Mack cleared 6m+ one time Bubka 40something. You can't be serious can you? If the goal was to jump 6.0m then yes everyone who has done it would have the best technique. But the goal is to jump higher than Bubka or Yelena. And do you know what the best part is? The same technique works for Beginners all the way up to Bubka and Isi too! (what a plug)

As an athlete if you choose to ignore what Alan (and Roman 6.40 thread and continous chain for that matter) have posted and written, no big deal your choice. What a shame though. But if you do want to be the best that you can possibly be I say listen-up and study the great information that Alan has provided (on the this site and in the new book)!

i agree with you, the goal is to jump higher than bubka, and how will we ever do that if we use the exact form as him? or even model our form around him, we will never get better if we do not try different things. do you think when Thomas Edison invented a usable light bulb he called it quits and made thousands of light bulbs exactly like that? no, he tried different things and improved them, and they are still improving today, my personal theory on the vault, is trying things from many vaulters including bubka and maybe it will work, maybe it wont, but we will never know if we all try to jump just like bubka

[powerplant42]

Become faster and stronger than he was. Perform the technical model better than Bubka did (possible, by the way...) and focus more on the runway and off. Until a new concept arises that better exploits/creates energy input, Petrov's model is really the best way. This new model, if it does eventually exist, will most likely be discovered by a team of biomechanists and physicists, not one vaulter playing around with bending his trail leg. I think that being openminded is a good thing, especially when it comes to science. However, Einstein had the MATH to back up general relativity. But who knows, maybe in 3400 people will be standing on top loaded poles, and Fosbury over the bar. I surely can't say where things will go, for better or worse...

[spike gibeault]

Become faster and stronger than he was. Perform the technical model better than Bubka did (possible, by the way...) and focus more on the runway and off. Until a new concept arises that better exploits/creates energy input, Petrov's model is really the best way. This new model, if it does eventually exist, will most likely be discovered by a team of biomechanists and physicists, not one vaulter playing around with bending his trail leg. I think that being openminded is a good thing, especially when it comes to science. However, Einstein had the MATH to back up general relativity. But who knows, maybe in 3400 people will be standing on top loaded poles, and Fosbury over the bar. I surely can't say where things will go, for better or worse...

its not just bending the trail leg, there is hundreds of aspects in the vault that could possibly change and if everyone tried different things then im sure one of them would come out with a better jump then bubka, its not going to happen with one person, it will take many

[vaultman18]

You think you are more explosive, but you're not. By tucking at any point, you're absorbing energy that should have been put into the pole.

http://polevaultpower.com/6mclub.php

if this is not explosive, then how does tim mack have a higher push off than bubka and he bends his trail leg?

We have been down this road. So let me sum-up. Mack cleared 6m+ one time Bubka 40something. You can't be serious can you? If the goal was to jump 6.0m then yes everyone who has done it would have the best technique. But the goal is to jump higher than Bubka or Yelena. And do you know what the best part is? The same technique works for Beginners all the way up to Bubka and Isi too! (what a plug)

As an athlete if you choose to ignore what Alan (and Roman 6.40 thread and continous chain for that matter) have posted and written, no big deal your choice. What a shame though. But if you do want to be the best that you can possibly be I say listen-up and study the great information that Alan has provided (on the this site and in the new book)!

i agree with you, the goal is to jump higher than bubka, and how will we ever do that if we use the exact form as him? or even model our form around him, we will never get better if we do not try different things. do you think when Thomas Edison invented a usable light bulb he called it quits and made thousands of light bulbs exactly like that? no, he tried different things and improved them, and they are still improving today, my personal theory on the vault, is trying things from many vaulters including bubka and maybe it will work, maybe it wont, but we will never know if we all try to jump just like bubka

You just don't get it and you are not the only one. What you just described is the very problem. Trying different things with no clear direction is a dead end. What you are not understanding is that the only way to ever be better than the current WR is to adopt the model used to set it. Vaulters have been trying your (mixed matched) way for many years with little success. Even with faster and stronger athletes no one has matched Bubka. The close ones used the same model.

If you watch Bubka on many of his jumps around 5.95-6.15 you will see he could have jumped higher. The one thing Bubka did that was a mistake was not letting it all hang out in his prime and putting the WR beyond reach (6.25-6.40?).

I suggest to you Spike Gibeault find and read all posts by Altius and Agapit on this board. I would start here http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4622
And I invite you to Boone NC to meet Alan (possibly Roman) in person and go through this hands on in a camp setting. I don't know where you are but Alan will be at Slippery Rock for 3 weeks in june and I think in Oregon before that. So you don't have to take my word for it find out for yourself.

[powerplant42]

I'm sure someone else could explain this better: The development of the Petrov model came out of chain theory. This theory, and the model, were studied by a team of Soviet scientists for who knows how long. They based everything off of what was the best way to create energy during/throughout the entire vault. I believe that the absolute perfect execution of the Petrov model would in some extremely minor way be flawed, yes. Perhaps there is some pivotal point where one should push the pole a certain way, or maybe one should flex a particular muscle for a certain period of time, etc. But there are things so much more important than this, such as speed, strength, focus, determination, equipment even. If one focuses on these instead of infintessimal flaws in the Petrov model, then one could jump much higher than they would if they did focus on these tiny details. I think until one clears 5.95 it's much more of a big picture thing than what should be happening at every single moment during a jump. If you want to keep waffling, let me know when that breakthrough happens, and I'll throw everything I've come to know away and use your new model. Happy vaulting.

[spike gibeault]

I'm sure someone else could explain this better: The development of the Petrov model came out of chain theory. This theory, and the model, were studied by a team of Soviet scientists for who knows how long. They based everything off of what was the best way to create energy during/throughout the entire vault. I believe that the absolute perfect execution of the Petrov model would in some extremely minor way be flawed, yes. Perhaps there is some pivotal point where one should push the pole a certain way, or maybe one should flex a particular muscle for a certain period of time, etc. But there are things so much more important than this, such as speed, strength, focus, determination, equipment even. If one focuses on these instead of infintessimal flaws in the Petrov model, then one could jump much higher than they would if they did focus on these tiny details. I think until one clears 5.95 it's much more of a big picture thing than what should be happening at every single moment during a jump. If you want to keep waffling, let me know when that breakthrough happens, and I'll throw everything I've come to know away and use your new model. Happy vaulting.

ok, ill get back to you in a couple years, happy vaulting to you too.

[spike gibeault]

how i feel about the bent trail leg:

After take off, you should swing your leg straight and fast, but after the pole has finished bending, it is a waste to try to store more energy in it because it is trying to return the energy back to you, after the pole has finished bending you should break down your trail leg in order to waste less energy. By breaking down the trail leg after the pole has stopped bending you are able to get into a vertical position faster, and without taking energy from the pole, or trying to load more energy in it when it tries to recoil thus wasting energy.after that you straighten out your legs up the pole which throws your body weight up. As you do this, you pull your body up, which also transfers your movement to vertical, the pole is also recoiling upwards which also puts more energy into your vertical movement.

If you have a straight trail leg throughout the vault, after the pole has finished bending you are trying to fight the pole by storing more energy into it when it is trying to release energy, this is wasting energy that could be used to send you vertical, when you do get vertical, you can only use the poles energy and your arms to pull, you to not have the advantage of two legs to throw your momentum upwards more, and this is another waste of energy that could be put into the pole

i am not saying petrov's model is bad, it is a great method but I feel that it can be improved on and be made more efficient. I am not telling you to agree with me, and i am not trying to argue that this is defiantly better than petrov's because i am no scientist, but people spend to much time pointing out the good in it and not looking for flaws, or possible better methods. This is just my theory of the vault, and i am happy the way it is working for me. everybody has their own style and methods and different views, i am not trying to set a world record, nor am i trying to say im better than bubka, i am trying to have a great time and try new things, i have read many posts by Altius and Agapit and i feel they have some great views on the vault and they are great coaches and i have much respect for them and all other coaches on here but where was it written that everybody has to jump like bubka did? i first posted on this topic because i wanted to know what other peoples views on the advantage of a straight trail leg throughout the entire vault, i was not looking to say a bent trail leg was better or to try and change my style, i was just curious to other peoples views on the vault. I have received many mixed answers, some were not what i was looking for but others were great, thanks you all for your responses

-spike

[powerplant42]

Bubka broke his trail leg once inverted, if that's what you're talking about. But not puting energy into the pole as much as possible makes absolutely no sense at all. It's like a double jump in a video game! Puting as much energy as possible into the vault means that the pole will bend back harder/faster and with the vaulter potentially in a much better position than otherwise. Bending the trail leg allows for the pole to unbend without bending as much as would be desirable. You could get into the same position by bending the trail leg as you could keeping it straight. It's just the fact that more energy is loaded into the pole during the swing if the trail leg is kept straight.