Mid Mark Chart

[ladyvolspvcoach]

I thought if a vaulter was shorter, then their mid should be closer because of shorter strides, even if it's only a few inches. Right? Shouldn't the math work out to be so that she's a couple inches under 44'?

Actually, If you understand the chart then the shorter the vaulter the further OUT the mid and take-off SHOULD be. However, Try in every way to keep the mid as close to the chart as possible.....and through this dialogue it becomes extremely clear that run dynamics and the chart are sorely missunderstood!!

[dj]

dj wrote:

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by the way mike was not near the fastest vaulter of his time.. after some work he was no longer the slowest..

and to put this more into perspective... he was 6-4 and 195lbs and used "MID's" that matched the chart.. in practice if he was gripping lower he would move his "MID" in accordingly.

dj

If he gripped lower would he have to bring in his whole run up? I have a chart for that. -4" grip -1' run up or something close to it.

good morning roman

is there a question in this post? if so could you explain a little more..

if i understand the question to be... "If he gripped lower would he have to bring in his whole run up?"

the answer is yes.. like you stated and the chart indicates.. it's one foot for each hand grip. 3.75 inches or something like that..

typically we all have our vaulters take some "warm-up" jumps with a lower grip because they are not running full speed yet.

i move the run in accordingly so the athlete doesn't have to "stretch".

95% of the vaulters world wide that don't adjust their steps this way during warm-ups take several "jumps" before they are "ON".. waste energy, create a "stretching" running posture, poor form and most of the time are very "insecure" going into the competition..

my jumpers go up the first time down the runway, build confidence because the stride pattern has been determined by the speed and grip of the athlete.

can an athlete be ready to run full speed with their "PR" "MID" the first time down the runway? yes they can, but usually not..

but if they are running fast with a low grip what is the worst that happens? they blow through..

but if they are not ready, running fast enough for the for the meet "MID", they will stretch the steps, have a poor plant, takeoff under and come down short!!! ......... land in the box, get hurt or loose the correct "feel" of how to run and plant correctly. a lot of Injuries have been caused by this..

does any of this make sense?

dj

ps

at one of the indoor meets in america that bubka jumped at, he had to move his approach run "IN" by two steps.

the nike rep was with him warming up and asked me what the mark was that i had put on the side of the runway. (i had placed a chalk mark on the side of the runway at 56 feet because we/I felt that if bubka jumped at 19-8 or higher that night i wanted to see if the grip and "MID" matched up.)


during his warmup and to check his steps bubka had asked him to check his step at 17/17.50 meters because of the different start. i think bubka hit about 4/6 inches outside my mark, took off correctly and poped off the top of the pole with a 16-6 grip (i check the grip after the meet while the pole was laying on the rack)

[volteur]

how about different wind conditions dj?

[dj]

hey

a "tailwind" should allow you to run faster so the grip up.. and the "MID" should be out.

a head wind slows you down so the grip is down and the "MID" comes in.

The factors still remain proportionate... speed to grip and speed to "MID"

dj

[agapit]

hey

a "tailwind" should allow you to run faster so the grip up.. and the "MID" should be out.

a head wind slows you down so the grip is down and the "MID" comes in.

The factors still remain proportionate... speed to grip and speed to "MID"

dj

I understand all of this.

What I do not understand is how it is a training tool? Does it increase the strength, speed of an athlete? Or is it a training tool? Maybe it is a self check tool? If you are clearing 19'8 and your mid mark is 57' you can do something better?

I will be your biggest fan if you clarify this for me.

[dj]

For competition I would say it is a self check tool or an accuracy mark.

This final 3rd part of the run is characterized by the increased rate of the run while the length of the stride remains the same, thus achieving the maximum speed of the run-up. The length of the strides is a little shorter as compared to sprint, the body is straightened. The length of the strides should not change abruptly. The 2nd last step is longer than the last one by 10-20 cm (optional).
This part in covered in 6 strides and equals to 17.0 – 17.5 m (shown by top athletes of the world) if measured from the back of the box.

This description of the run is very important to the pole drop and plant. In fact it is primary to the success of the complete vault. I feel as primary as the correct hand hold on the pole, the correct foot forward and the correct pole position at the first step.

The accuracy of the run and a highly correct MID is the best way the athlete can consistently run with the correct posture and speed. To far IN and the athlete has to cut the steps to much and put on the brakes forcing the athlete "under" with little or no chance for a free takeoff. A MID to far out and the athlete has to stretch, lose posture, disturb the vaulter/pole system, lose speed, lower the mass and step under. Even if a vault is completed the indicators will be flawed.

Pole runs on the track help you become, more accurate, increase speed by promoting proper foot strike, the correct posture which allows for the correct pole carry/drop position. Increases the number of vaults that can be preformed correctly because the run is creating the physics to plant and swing correctly. Having an accurate fast run each vault helps the vaulter make an "educated" judgment as to the correct pole stiffness needed.

dj


ps.. maybe others on here can expand on the benefits of and accurate fast run.

[OH-IOvaulter]

The accuracy of the run and a highly correct MID is the best way the athlete can consistently run with the correct posture and speed. To far IN and the athlete has to cut the steps to much and put on the brakes forcing the athlete "under" with little or no chance for a free takeoff. A MID to far out and the athlete has to stretch, lose posture, disturb the vaulter/pole system, lose speed, lower the mass and step under. Even if a vault is completed the indicators will be flawed.

This by it self makes complete and clear sense. Qualifying the take off as not "free" if the mid is off now gives me (maybe not others but I am seeing more clearly now) something concrete to base further concepts upon. Most if not all experienced vaulters can take off from slightly under (as is unfortunately where most find their comfort zone) but using the MID as an indicator will tell us whether or not they will be positioned, not only at the point of take off for the jump foot but also posture (read hip position), for a proper free take off. So once the vaulter is warm and running consistently I can manipulate the step accordingly from the MID to assure that they are at least in the proper place to take off free (even if they choose not to and stretch to the comfort zone)?

[agapit]

ps.. maybe others on here can expand on the benefits of and accurate fast run.

I hope everyone agrees with importance of accurate, fast run.
In my experience running on the marks does not really correct posture of the run unless athlete specifically focuses on the posture. It does not increase quality of the muscles either.

I still do not see how the mid mark for Scott Huffman (5'7" tall) would be equal to the mid mark of Victor Chistyakov (6'6" tall). I can assure you that Scott's cadence is higher that Vladimir's, although Vladimir is a very good sprinter 10.35 sec 100m.

So, what is the proper application of the mid mark chart in the training process. What training exercises should be done to adhere to the chart system?

P.S. We always used mid mark to make sure that the run up is consistent and the take-off point. We established the mid mark in training as well as competitions and it varied slightly through the season and even day to day. It usually reflected the physical condition of the vaulter and any other changes we attempted to do in the structure of the run up. I just do not see how I can squeeze anyone into a set "final" mid mark position with all the variables outstanding.

[dj]

good morning

as you like.

dj

[ladyvolspvcoach]

Roman, Scott Huffman and Vicktor's mids can be the same if their grip heights match up. It doesn't matter what the biomechanics indicate it is rather the relationship of the Hypoteneuse of the triangle when the athlete stands at the take off position with top hand raised as in a take-off. The run drills that you and Lee were running in Stokley a few years ago were a derivation of the stride lengths indicated in DJ's chart..

[agapit]

Roman, Scott Huffman and Vicktor's mids can be the same if their grip heights match up. It doesn't matter what the biomechanics indicate it is rather the relationship of the Hypoteneuse of the triangle when the athlete stands at the take off position with top hand raised as in a take-off. The run drills that you and Lee were running in Stokley a few years ago were a derivation of the stride lengths indicated in DJ's chart..

Gentlemen, here is an example for you to consider:

Athlete #1 Average Speed 10m/s; with average step cadence of 4.60 steps/second; with 6 step mid-mark at 17.04m and take off point at 4m from the box and average step length of 2m 17cm.

Athlete #2 Average Speed 10m/s; with average step cadence of 4.65 steps/second; with 6 step mid-mark at 16.90m and take off point at 4m from the box and average step length of 2m 15cm.

This will gain difference of 14 centimeters or 5.51 inches on the mid-mark between these two athletes.

Now, why these numbers are are different? Well one athlete is stronger and the other quicker just a bit, quickness 1.08% and step length difference of 0.921% to be precise.

Are you saying everyone who runs 10m/s has the same cadence?

Cheers!

[dj]

hey

actually i think we are getting closer to a "solution".

What do you see as the reasonable difference between a Scott Huffman and Mr. Chistyakov on the last six steps?

I'll follow up later with some thoughts.

dj

Ps.... is victor a vaulter? If so would he want to spend some time with me from June 21 to July 21? I'm serious. I'll be in Finland and he is welcome to join some of our training.