PoleVaultPower.com

I decided to create this poll, after at least 3 posters (PP, Wally, Marq) argued for pushing with the bottom arm on Sooch's video review. [sigh]

You'd think by now that we'd reach a consensus on this issue, as it's been discussed on here for years! Perhaps this issue will NEVER be resolved, as the camps are so different in their opinions and their personal experiences?

To clarify, I'm specifically referring to PUSHING with the bottom arm AFTER the pole hits the box. I'm not referring to PRESSING the bottom arm up prior to the pole hitting the box.

Anyway, further discussion can't hurt, so here goes ...

I think it boils down to whether you're trying to follow the Petrov model or not.

There have been lots of very good vaulters that don't conform to Petrov, so I'm not going to be a bigot by saying that the Petrov model is the only model.

For example, Tim Mack (EDIT: I mean Derek Miles!) doesn't follow the model, and he's doing not too badly.

On the other hand, I think he's super-human, whereas Petrov is for us mere mortals - AS WELL AS for super-humans.

Perhaps the OTHER way of vaulting (the non-Petrov model, so to speak) just hasn't been explained and documented by anyone as well as the Petrov model (Tim McMichael excluded).

You'd think we'd at least be able to say that with Petrov there's no push, but for some other model - is it the "American model"? - there is a push.

Please vote, and then defend your vote.

By running this poll in the Advanced forum, I don't mean to imply that this issue is only important for advanced vaulters. Anyone can vote. If you think there's some distinction between "proper" technique based on Beginner, Intermediate, or Advanced, please explain that too. It's just that I think this topic will ultimately drift towards very advanced, technical differences. But I could argue the other way too, and say that beginners need to know what to do with their bottom arm on Day 1 - so it's definitely not just an Advanced topic.

Thanks for your participation.

Kirk

EDIT on Jan 11, 2009: Added survey choice "Petrov - no push but a little isometric resistance is OK". See my post of Jan 11 for my explanation.

kirk,

I think you may have misunderstood my post before.....that being said, if I can't convey what I am trying to say correctly, my posts are not very helpful.

Let me try again.....I agree with the petrov model, but I was giving a little differnt view of it. I don't believe that a vaulter should push into the pole, but should keep their bottom tensed (not locked out) in order to stop the vaulters body from getting sucked under. I still don't think I am explaining this as well as I would like to, but does anyone kinda understand what I am saying......I just picture a vaulter straight poleing in the 40's and now bending the pole present day.....back in the day the arm was bent and the hips came through much quicker........any body understand me

I get you.

Words are the problem.

And Mack is very close with the Petrov model.

FESTIVUS YES!! PUSHING NO!!

Marq, have you heard the philosophy that a vaulter should do the same thing on a bending pole, as a straight pole?? Personally, in your closing statement, it sounded like your contridicted yourself.

VaultMarq26 wrote: back in the day the arm was bent and the hips came through much quicker

yea...that's a good thing. Fast hips is good, it means you can work "ahead" of the reacoil of the pole. That's what you want. Bottom arm should be relaxed at take-off. Remember, the pole becomes like a high-bar; you don't want to interfere with the natural pole-movement and, in turn, body-swing.

Once the pole starts to bend, the bottom arm will naturally straighten out, without requiring any force/pressure from it.

joebro391 wrote:Once the pole starts to bend, the bottom arm will naturally straighten out, without requiring any force/pressure from it.

Remember i am talking about the video of the intermediate vaulter from another post......he got fiberfaced at take-off....so needs to get his arm out a little

Here is where I am possibly confused or speaking incorrectly......if you are not acively straightening your arm, you are telling me that the pole is pulling your arm straight....i may be missing something here, but your bottom arm must be somewhat active to complete a vault right?

Kirk,

I think I figured it out....I was reading your post on the article about the continuous chain model, and I realized that I am arguing for a better redistribution of the vaulters energy by proper placement of his bottom arm. "From an energy point of view, the arms' vertical movement, relative to the vaulter's body, should continue through takeoff and end after the vaulter is off the ground".......in the video the vaulter takes off the ground and the bottom arm has a NEGATIVE vertical movement relative to the vaulters body.......this is causing a loss of energy/poor distribution of the energy that is present.

SO.....that is where my confusion came from, and to answer the question of the post, actively pushing with the bottom arm after the take-off is not necessary, but isometric muscle activation in that arm to stop any negative motion is important.

powerplant42 wrote: Mack is very close with the Petrov model.

Sorry, I meant Miles - not Mack. My bad.

I'll reply to you, Marq, later. Thanks for your input. Gotta run right now.

Kirk

VaultMarq26 wrote:Remember i am talking about the video of the intermediate vaulter from another post......he got fiberfaced at take-off....so needs to get his arm out a little

Oh yea, i saw that haha. Idk, at take-off, my arm goes over my head, instead of into my face. I just re-watched that jump, of sooch and I think that the reason why his forearm keep whacking him in the face, is because his plant may be a tad to his right; which would also explain why he goes over the bar, a little bit, sideways. Notice how in his other vault (the second vault, of the vaults he's comparing) he doesn't get hit in the face AND goes over strait-ish

VaultMarq26 wrote: ... if you are not acively straightening your arm, you are telling me that the pole is pulling your arm straight ...

Yes, the pole is pulling your arm straight. If you just look at video (of say Bubka or Isi), it may LOOK like they're applying pressure with their bottom arm, but that's definitely not the case.

VaultMarq26 wrote: ... i may be missing something here, but your bottom arm must be somewhat active to complete a vault right?

No, your bottom arm does NOT need to be "somewhat active" to complete a vault. This is a common misconception. The truth is, all you need to do is hang on tightly with the top hand, and your momentum from the run and takeoff will bend the pole in the arc between the grip and the pole butt. Any pressure applied with the bottom hand (either pushing or pulling) will alter the natural arch that forms between the top hand and the butt (bad).

VaultMarq26 wrote: ...I was reading your post on the article about the continuous chain model, and I realized that I am arguing for a better redistribution of the vaulters energy by proper placement of his bottom arm. "From an energy point of view, the arms' vertical movement, relative to the vaulter's body, should continue through takeoff and end after the vaulter is off the ground"...

Correct. You are quoting from the PLANT INPUT section here: http://polevaultpower.com/forum/search.php?t=16118
In a nutshell that section states that by forcefully thrusting both arms and the pole upwards at the end of the plant, you will add 15-20kg of additional momentum into your jump. Think about how you might jump up to touch a basketball rim. You THRUST your arm up in unison to jumping, which gives you added lift. (In other threads, I've also referred to THRUSTING as PRESSING - to differentiate it from PUSHING.) That's exactly what Roman is advocating in this section, and it makes perfect sense (and is how I did it - I learned this by my basketball training throughout HS).

VaultMarq26 wrote:... in the video the vaulter takes off the ground and the bottom arm has a NEGATIVE vertical movement relative to the vaulters body.......this is causing a loss of energy/poor distribution of the energy that is present ...

OK, I see what you're saying. In this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1UFOINX8-g&feature=channel_page, Sooch's bottom arm appears to drop DOWN (negative vertical movement). This part is true. However, I'm not convinced that "... this is causing a loss of energy/poor distribution of the energy that is present ...". Instead, I think the dropping down of his bottom hand is just a consequence of him not executing the Petrov model "properly" here.

To execute it properly, he should reach his top arm up, stretching it as high as possible (in a vigourous THRUSTING action, along with the the bottom arm, as advocated by Roman in his PLANT INPUT section). But remember that once the pole hits the box, the plant action is COMPLETE, and there should be no more pressure applied by the bottom arm in ANY direction, else it will adversely affect the energy distribution of the bending pole (bad).

The precise explanation of this vault part is a little controversial between myself and Roman, as he advocates a "lat pull" here, whereas I advocate absolutely no pull or push in ANY direction. I take the position (correctly, IMHO) that Roman's "lat pull" is a very advanced technique that only a super-human (that can do a shoot-to-a-handstand from a standing start under a highbar) can execute. This very rare person has the athleticism to break the mWR. For the rest of us mere mortals (~99.99% of all vaulters), the "lat pull" won't work.

To be fair, Roman (Agapit) has been off the PVP board since about July 2008, so we have not resolved our differences on this matter. Also, there is at least one vaulter on this forum that has apparently performed the lat pull with success. According to him (I forget his name), calling it a "lat pull" is an oversimplification of the muscle actions involved. But this is very advanced stuff IMHO, and does not apply to us mere mortals. I mention this only to be fair - in the interest of full disclosure.

VaultMarq26 wrote: SO.....that is where my confusion came from, and to answer the question of the post, actively pushing with the bottom arm after the take-off is not necessary ...

Yes. So that would be a vote for #1, right?

VaultMarq26 wrote:... but isometric muscle activation in that arm to stop any negative motion is important.

Hmm ... So that would be a vote for #2?

On the one hand, you're saying no active blocking, but on the other hand, your saying "stop any negative motion". Isn't that just another form of blocking?

Your quandry seems to be that SOMETHING has to stop that negative motion, so it must be the bottom arm that does it. This is where I think you're not realizing that the pole will bend on its own WITHOUT any "isometric muscle activation".

To say this another way, the focus should not be on what the bottom arm does or does not do. Instead, the focus should be on what the top arm/hand does. You will find - thru self-discovery - that the bend of the pole due to pressure from the TOP HAND ONLY is more efficient than by pressure from both hands. That's the Petrov way! That's what Bubka, Isi, and many others do! That's what I did too - which is why I'm confident that this technqiue REALLY WORKS ... even tho it sounds counter-intuitive until you actually experience it!

Kirk

joebro391 wrote:

VaultMarq26 wrote:Remember i am talking about the video of the intermediate vaulter from another post......he got fiberfaced at take-off....so needs to get his arm out a little

Oh yea, i saw that haha. Idk, at take-off, my arm goes over my head, instead of into my face. I just re-watched that jump, of sooch and I think that the reason why his forearm keep whacking him in the face, is because his plant may be a tad to his right; which would also explain why he goes over the bar, a little bit, sideways. Notice how in his other vault (the second vault, of the vaults he's comparing) he doesn't get hit in the face AND goes over strait-ish

If you THRUST, STRETCH, or PRESS your top hand upwards during your plant, and FREEZE IT in that position, keeping good vertical body posture (an upright C - not a "lazy C"), then the pole will bend out of the way of your face before it comes too close.

In Sooch's vault, this isn't happening, so his plant and takeoff must be sub-optimal.

As 6P mentioned, if your plant is late, it will also be sub-optimal. So Sooch, you need to plant EARLY, and THRUST your top arm (along with your bottom arm and pole) in an upwards direction BEFORE the pole hits. As soon as the pole hits, you need to put as much weight as you possibly can on your top hand.

If your top arm/hand isn't very strong (likely since your don't do highbar or ring work), you'll need to supplement this with taking some of the weight with your bottom arm. But remember that this is sub-optimal. To optimize this, almost ALL of the weight should be on the top hand (THIS IS WHAT BENDS THE POLE - EARLY!) and the bottom hand should just be used for balance.

Kirk

Thanks for taking the time to explain it....that was really helpful....i guess i had a few misconceptions of what actually was happening during the vault....I've only been vaulting for 10 years, so I have a lot to learn still.......it is amazing to me how even vaulters who have been doing it for 20+ years can learn something new.....i'm on my way...thanks again

That was a good description... I am really thinking I'll make a video for a VISUAL AID. You can only get across a part of what should happen with language. You can almost complete it with sight.

The kinisthetic component gets it 100% by itself. But this is a website, so we'll be limited to the first two.

What should I put in the video? Of course what TO do and what NOT to do, but is there anything extra anyone wants? I will not be able to actually vault when I make this vid, but I can plant I guess...