Mid Mark Chart

[rainbowgirl28]

Dave Johnston's mid mark chart is now available at http://www.polevaultpower.com/docs/djmidchart.doc (It's a Word file)

He's going to get on here and explain it to everyone... it's really GOOD stuff.

[Scott Go Pre]

Bubba Sparks has a list quite similar to this. It can be found at http://www.bubbapv.com/Pages/dj.htm. It kind of explains what the numbers mean. These two list are almost identical except that Dave's has a different stride time and also has a meters/sec section as well.

[dj]

the charts are one and the same... the newest one, this one, has updated metric mps auto times as found by perter mcginnis' high speed vid

dj

[master]

Can someone confirm that the "Hand Grip" number is measured from the pole tip, not the top of the box. Also that the "Take Off" mark is measured from the top of the box back board to the tip of the vaulters toes.

[dj]

the grip is from the tip to the top of the hand... the takeoff point is measured from the back of the box, pit side/top...

the takeoff points were from doing the math... hypotenuse and right angle formed with an averaqge 8' reach at the takeoff..

the pole is the hypotenuse, from the tip to the top of the grip..

the grip to the toe is the vertical side..

the toe at runway level to the back/top of the box is the "base" side

kool?

[dj]

it had been several years since i had seen bubba's pages... i actually thought they had been removed...

the charts are mine but some of the writing differs from mine...(no offense bubba)

the last line from the "the six stride mark" ....these marks may also differ for tall or short vaulters.. is not mine ... the mid and grip are virtually the same, tall or short! you must have the stride length and stride frequency to move a curtain grip to vertical, stride length is created by speed not physical stature, duplantis was hitting the same (within 6") mid as tully when they jumped at 18'8" ... of course Greg's takeoff was out further than mikes because of the reach difference...

the advanced use of the list is not mine... i had rather see a vaulter use the list very closely "mid to grip" to establish rhythm and proper run/pole carry technique.. trying to beat the list goes away from a natural progression...

for example what i am seeing is many women (and high school boys) in the 13-6 range are hitting a 48 foot mid.. over striding.. lose speed...take off under.. and have no chance at all in having a "free" takeoff or even a good plant because they are sinking at the takeoff ... by doing this the "false" load/over load the pole. if they swing at all it is past the pole deep into the pit ... the vaulter moves their run back, gets a bigger pole and tries to plant better ... this usually doesn't work ... on occasion the vaulter runs harder from the start ... has a better mid and succeeds.. but that is about one time in 6..

several of the jumpers i saw jump recently were doing this ... some had 4 different ""mids" in 4 jumps ... ranging from 44' to 48'.... when they were "on" or good stride frequency and stride length, they usually didn't have the right grip or pole to jump effectively..

you should be capable of finding a vaulters "comfortable" mid pretty quickly..by watching the form and rhythm.

i add these experiences hoping to help clarify the process.. i look at the "mid" as a simple-natural application of force.. "mid" matches hand grip ... can a vaulter that uses a 58' mid expect to jump 20'.... no ... unless the running form/pole carry, stride frequency are correct it is not likely...when bubka jumped 20+ can we expect his mid was at approx.... 58' ...yes..

several months ago i had my first workout with a post grad female vaulter...after warm-up and a couple of drills ... she said she was ready to get on the runway..we had a 12' pole and i asked what grip she though see could get up on.. she said the top.. i put a 40' mid on the runway ... had here run back 3 lefts from there ... she did 6 lefts.. 3 to the 40' mid and 3 to takeoff.. and went up the first time because she was own ... how did we know it would work?? she knew she could move a 12' grip.. i knew the force needed to do that was a 40' mid....

i have seen men vaulters hit 58/60' and stretch to take off..under... without a free takeoff.... every now and then a good vault comes out of it, right pole right grip.. but not consistently..

bubka hit close to 17 meters(56' ish) on a 19'8" jump indoors in la with a shorter full run... have i seen him hit 53 and jump over 19 feet? yes.. but he had the ability to quicken the frequency, chop, faster shorter strides, that gave him the force to move a 16'8" grip to vertical..could he have done that on a stiffer pole.. more than likely not...

tim mack's marks were in the 54/55 range.. 13‚„8 TO.. 16‚„4 grip and 1.37 sec for the last 6 steps‚¦ the mid, grip and time were closely matched.. what he did was swing more efficiently and stayed‚ “ahead‚ of the pole as agapit said and jumped higher than average for that speed and force‚

yesterday i worked with 5 high school girls i had not worked with before... 4 had jumped 7' one had jumped 8'... we used 5 lefts.. and "mids" and grips of 33', 34', 35'... the 4 7'ers griped 9'6 to 9'10 and jumped 8'.... the 8'er gripped 10'6 and blue through her only pole..over 8' and deep in the pit... i didn't have a pole with me but she is supposed to get one by friday.. she jumped over 8' from a 4 left but i didn't have her continue.. i wanted her to get her run ready for the bigger pole..

[master]

Thanks for the details. (I'm an engineer so I always try to figure this stuff out. ) But without going through that now, I will tell you why I have an interest in this. Everything seems very close for me except the Take Off mark. Looking at the line for 13-0, my take off foot is at 11-0 not 10-0. What does that tell you about me and my jumping. I will say I am trying to do the free take-off style and I am 5'9" tall.

[dj]

were does your toe touch the runway with a 12'10" grip standing on tip toes with the pole planted and reaching high?

"out" is good unless you are sinking at the takeoff... i think the vaulters "feel" at the takeoff is more important than the TO point.

i very seldom catch the TO.. just the "mid" and then i look for stretch, chop, slow down, yanked...or the best of all... an early high plant.. that is smooth, quick and dynamic.

[master]

dj,

The way I measure it my toe is right at 11' when I get into the take off position. Now that I think about it, my grip is really at 13-0 not 12-10 when I jump. I'm using 4.15m Pacer FX poles. Also, my grip flat footed is only 7-0 high so at best, on my toes, it might be 7-3 or 4.

I am aware, and have experienced, the sinking situation when my steps are out from 11-0. Also, when I don't agressively jump up and into the pole I sink. This last characteristic is one I am working on. Do you have any suggestions for building up the conditioning and the technique for a good jump at take off? I could really use that.

master

[rainbowgirl28]

i very seldom catch the TO.. just the "mid" and then i look for stretch, chop, slow down, yanked...or the best of all... an early high plant.. that is smooth, quick and dynamic.

My coach (Lane Lohr) does the same thing when he coaches us.

[master]

the grip is from the tip to the top of the hand... the takeoff point is measured from the back of the box, pit side/top...

the takeoff points were from doing the math... hypotenuse and right angle formed with an averaqge 8' reach at the takeoff..

the pole is the hypotenuse, from the tip to the top of the grip..

the grip to the toe is the vertical side..

the toe at runway level to the back/top of the box is the "base" side

kool?

When I use this info and adjust for my shorter reach at take off and slightly higher grip height, my take off point computes to 10-10. That is close enough in my book for me to feel like I'm in sync with your chart. Thanks again for taking the time to help me understand it better.
- master

[dj]

lane is your coach.. very kool.. say hi