pushing back out during the swing?

[KirkB]

I was referring to the initiation of that swing after the shoulder girdles are arrested and the full body coil is loaded. ...

Hmm ... I know that the shoulder girdles are the collar bone (clavicle) and shoulder blade (scapula), but I don't know why you're worried about the BONES. Why not just say "shoulders", which refers to just the muscles? It's the muscles that do the work! And why are the shoulder girdles arrested? Bad technique is not a crime, it's just a misdemeanor!

And I know what you mean by "full body coil", but I don't see the need for those words. Why not just say "stretch"? (This is a rhetorical question - please don't answer.)

I sure hope you're not using these terms on your proteges!

Does not the stretch-reflex action of the entire body coil occur naturally and automatically and the swing is therefore self initiated?

No. It's not like a fully compressed or fully stretched metal spring. These are human body parts that you're stretching (the muscles - not the bones, so why mention the bones?), and YOU have to control them! Another way to say this is that unless you keep all your muscles stretched, taut, and controlled by YOU, the timing and direction of this gymnastics movement isn't going to be optimal.

... if it is and you just let nature run its course you would not have to be concerned with timing it.

Coach Vinson already answered this, but my answer is the same. YOU must take the initiative on this, not just "let things happen". I do see what you're getting at, but "letting nature run its course" doesn't really help at the elite level. At the beginner level, yes, but the higher you vault (or want to vault), the more you need to MAKE things happen in all of your gymnastic movements on the pole, rather than just LETTING them happen.

I believe you have also answered that in your reply and say that it is not, but must be timed, as learned from countless high bar swing drills.

So let me clarify a bit by way of an analogy with sprinting. Do sprinters "time" each stride? Well, yes and no. They won't be able to tell you the exact number of milliseconds each stride takes (unless they divide their 100m time by the number of strides they took). But that's not the kind of timing I'm referring to.

I'm referring to "knowing" (intuitively) the precise moment that you take each stride. And there is a precise moment. Just as one stride is finishing, you (intuitively) know exactly when to begin the next stride. So in that way, you are "timing" your strides. Ditto the time at which you start your "full body whip".

Now I think what you might be asking me is: "If it's timed, then how long do you wait before you start your whip?".

I've tried to explain this, but you're not getting it yet. So let me ask you: "If a sprinter is timing each stride, then how long does he wait before he takes the next stride?".

OK, that's another rhetorical question, so I'll just give you the answer ...

You DON'T wait! You do it as fast as you can! And the faster you can put one foot in front of the other (sprint), the faster your 100m time will be!

Ditto with the whip. You don't wait at all! If you wait, you will not start whipping and swinging early enough!

And I've said it before, but I'll reiterate for emphasis: This is not to say that you don't fully stretch before you whip. (If you did, you'd be pulling a la the 640 Model). You MUST do a full stretch, and then IMMEDIATELY pop/whip back out of it! When? AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE!

There is no such thing as doing this TOO quickly!

Kirk

[KirkB]

Hey, here's an add-on to my sprinting analogy ...

If a sprinter wants to run faster, he can either increase his cadence (faster movements of each stride), or he can increase the length of each stride (with a constant cadence). Conventional wisdom says that once you increase your cadence to the max, then you work on increasing the LENGTH of each stride. Or maybe you do a bit of each.

But let's say you misunderstand this concept, and you decide that you're going to sprint faster by SHORTENING each stride. After all, if each stride is SHORTER, then you should be able to do them quicker, right?

So what will this involve?

Well, it means that you'll NOT push off as hard on each stride, and NOT extend the leg as far behind you. That's wasted motion, right?

You decide that pushing off too far behind is too passive. It wastes too much time. So remove those passive motions!

Problem solved, right?

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

This is what we have been focusing on to develop a fast powerful swing in practice. My knowledge of this is only based on what I have read, seen and heard from others. I have not experienced this personally, so I really appreciate input from Kirk and others who have. I can only imagine what it feels like and really appreciate hearing from others who know what it feels like. I am by no means an expert in this area, but sure would like to be! Besides high bar swings, I have been instructing them to do the following in their vaults to achieve a fast powerful whip (I am mostly describing the use of the legs here. I purposely left out the use of the arms):

1) For the most part the knee drive should be viewed as a continuation of the running motion as it is crucial to accelerate in the last final steps before and into take off. There is however, a vertical component (jumping) that is very much like a long jumper and involves the plant foot, knee drive and chest drive.

2) It is very important for the plant foot to land firmly (flatly) on the ground and to roll up onto the ball of the foot to propel the vaulter (jump) in the vertical direction mainly through use and extension of the calve muscles. The continuation of this jumping stride must be maintained and the leg must be dragged (Stretched) back (This is very important, not only to stretch the trail leg, but as a counter balance for the body, to achieve the upright position with the chest leading the way through the arms) with the toe pointing down at the runway.

3) The major emphasis of the jump must be on the knee drive, up and forward, with the heel striking the butt, as a good indication of this effort. This will cause the drive knee hip to be pulled up and forward and should be felt by the vaulter.

4) The plant foot jump (while stretching the plant foot leg back) and the up and forward knee drive, work together to give the vaulter the sensation of jumping to the splits (Coined by Kirk). They must feel the stretch to the spits!

5) The head must be neutral (Not looking down at the box or up at the crossbar), looking straight ahead, just below the bottom hand.

6)The emphasis of the jump is to drive the chest and knee up and forward, while dragging the trail leg back,to create the full body coil, so that a stretch-reflex action can occur and result in a full body whip. Of course this also creates the vertical component of the jump, with minimum horizontal velocity loss, as the objective. According to Petrov's charts, in "State Of The Art", Bubka , actually accelerates in the last four steps!

7) As soon as the vaulter completes this stretch into the splits (Kirk is this felt as a release? Is over stretching the splits actually possible?) the full body coil will want to release it energy and the vaulter must be prepared for this moment, to perform a viscous whipping action, from the stretched C position, with a straight leg, through the use of the thigh (The swing hinges at the hips) with the heal extended and stretched as it passes the box and continue this motion (allowing the hips to break naturally) to the top of the pole.

I'm sure I screwed something up, or forgot some important details, but please enlighten me here as I am ALL ears!

[KirkB]

I think you pretty much "got" it now, PVDaddy!

Just a few minor corrections (I'll skip some of the details), but for the most part, if you're coaching your kids this way, this is sufficient to get them over 13-15 feet.

It is very important for the plant foot to land firmly (flatly) on the ground and to roll up onto the ball of the foot to propel the vaulter (jump) in the vertical direction mainly through use and extension of the calve muscles.

What you're describing (flat-footed takeoff) sounds more like a high jumper. It should be more like a long jumper - keep the heel off the ground as best you can, by striking your foot down with your calf muscles flexed and as taut as possible. This will minimize your energy loss on takeoff. If the heel touches the ground and stays there for any length of time at all, there is wasted/lost energy thru the foot.

The continuation of this jumping stride must be maintained and the leg must be dragged (Stretched) back (This is very important, not only to stretch the trail leg, but as a counter balance for the body, to achieve the upright position with the chest leading the way through the arms) with the toe pointing down at the runway.

Excellent point. Body posture on takeoff (including just before and just after takeoff) is so-o-o-o-o-o-o important! One way to keep this body posture thru the stretch is to stretch your trail leg back (and I personally stretched it back and UP) to the max.

3) The major emphasis of the jump must be on the knee drive, up and forward, with the heel striking the butt, as a good indication of this effort. This will cause the drive knee hip to be pulled up and forward and should be felt by the vaulter.

You lost me on "the heel striking the butt". I know you must mean during the run (not on takeoff), but this is an exaggeration, right? I think so, I've heard that described before. I wasn't a very good sprinter, but my heels never struck my butt! Maybe that's why I wasn't such a hot sprinter. But I think it's just a figure of speech - not to be taken literally. And if you DO mean on takeoff, the heel of my lead leg never touched my butt. Nowhere even close.

4) The plant foot jump (while stretching the plant foot leg back) and the up and forward knee drive, work together to give the vaulter the sensation of jumping to the splits (Coined by Kirk).

Please, if you're going to quote me, get it right. It's "jump to the split position" - not the splits. "Splits" sounds like doing the splits - like a gymnast on floor. The SPLIT POSITION is the lead knee as high as possible, and the trail leg as straight and as far back (and up) as possible. To be clear, the lead knee is UP, and the lead foot is DOWN. The trail knee is UP, and the trail foot is UP.

The emphasis of the jump is to drive the chest and knee up and forward, while dragging the trail leg back,to create the full body coil, so that a stretch-reflex action can occur and result in a full body whip.

You may want to reconsider your reference to "a stretch-reflex action" once you re-read my last couple of posts. I've clarified that it's a cognizant, deliberate action, not a reflexive action.

7) As soon as the vaulter completes this stretch into the split position (Kirk is this felt as a release? Is over stretching to the split position actually possible?)

I corrected "splits" to "the split position" (and underlined it).

What's "a release"? That's not in my vernacular. But I probably already answered this question - you've probably just asked it in a different way here.

No, over-stretching to the split position isn't possible. Unless you PAUSE in that position. You're only going to stretch as far as you possibly can (on any given jump), so by definition, you CAN'T over-stretch here.

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

Kirk:

Hmm ... I know that the shoulder girdles are the collar bone (clavicle) and shoulder blade (scapula), but I don't know why you're worried about the BONES. Why not just say "shoulders", which refers to just the muscles? It's the muscles that do the work! And why are the shoulder girdles arrested? Bad technique is not a crime, it's just a misdemeanor!

I don't know, I guess i felt if it was good enough for Petrov it was good enough for me! Enjoyed the humor though!

Petrov, from State of the Art:

athlete must release the shoulder girdle from
tension and drive his chest forward/upward,
while at the same time taking off with the
support leg and swinging with the free leg.
The quickness and depth of the take-off
greatly influence the technique of all the next
elements of the vault: the hang, swing and
rock-back. Moreover, the performance of the
take-off phase determines the rhythm of the
subsequent parts of the vault.

Looks like we are not the only fans of 'penetration" to achieve the full body coil to achieve the full body whip!

and:

It is worth
mentioning here that the arrest of the shoulders after the deep penetration ensures the
drive of the hips upwards to the pole, through
active unbending of the left arm,

Now to find out exactly what the "active unbending of the left arm" really implies?

[KirkB]

I see where you're getting those words from now.

I'm afraid that there's always something lost in the translation, and if Petrov is quoted as talking about the "shoulder girdle", I think he was probably really talking about the shoulder MUSCLES (attached to the clavicle and scapula), but the translator didn't quite get that. Something was lost in the translation.

Ditto for "arrested". That's a weird word to use in referring to what the shoulders do. "The arrest of the shoulders." In English, spoken by an English person who isn't ESL, I doubt that they would say "arrest of the shoulders". I don't even know what that means!

Unfortunately, we're trying to decipher PRECISE technical biomechannical actions that are recommended by an expert (Petrov) who speaks Russian, but relied on a translator that (a) may not have spoken perfect English or (b) may not have spoken perfect Russian or (c) may not have understood the precise technical terms that Petrov told him in Russian.

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

Kirk:

No, over-stretching to the split position isn't possible. Unless you PAUSE in that position. You're only going to stretch as far as you possibly can (on any given jump), so by definition, you CAN'T over-stretch here

Petrov:

The quickness and depth of the take-off greatly influence the technique of all the next elements of the vault: the hang, swing and rock-back. Moreover, the performance of the take-off phase determines the rhythm of thesubsequent parts of the vault.

and:

It is worth mentioning here that the arrest of the shoulders after the deep penetration ensures the drive of the hips upwards to the pole, through active unbending of the left arm,

The point that I have been trying to make right along is that the full body stretch (I have been calling this the "full body coil", because, I feel coil describes the C position (A coil is shaped like a C and will "Snap" forward, just like your finger will, if you stretch it back and "release" it on the table) That's what I meant by my question Kirk, can you "feel" this "release" (stretch-reflex)? Of course this is not enough force to complete the swing, but does it not help initiate it? Your neuromuscular transmission system (reflex) is not capable of responding as fast as the stretch-reflex. My thought was that if the vaulter can "Feel" the point at which the shoulders (When they come to arrest and the bottom hand is stretched over the head), spine and the legs have reached the point of full stretch and respond Immediately, with a forceful and deliberate full body whip , this action will catch the stretch-reflex at the prefect moment and will result in a swing that is as fast and deliberate as humanly possible! Much faster if they had not stretched beforehand. I have seen few vaulters that can whip as fast as Bubka or Duplantis and I believe it is how they take full advantage of this principal. I believe I have just described why you, me and Petrov feel that penetration into a full body stretch is so essential and why it is not passive action. Like you have said, "the vaulter is cocking the gun". I have said "the vaulter is flexible, just like the pole is and gets loaded and bends in the same direction. The term "pole loading" must be discarded and replaced with Vaulter/Pole System Loading, because pole loading,fails to describe the fact that the vaulter too, gets loaded". Petrov said, "the arrest of the shoulders after the deep penetration ensures the drive of the hips upwards to the pole."

You have mentioned in the past that there were instances were you had paused in your swing and it resulted in poor vaults. I am assuming you were trying to ensure a full body stretch and waited to long. You said there is not such a thing as to much of a body stretch and I believe you are correct. Like I said the body is like the pole. I believe it will bend as much as it needs to, as long as you perform everything correctly prior to and during penetration. What I have been trying to determine from the beginning is, can you feel that point of maximum stretch, initiate the full body whip at that exact moment and never have to be concerned with whipping to early (You said that's not possible but what if you did that prior to full penetration?) or to late and having a passive pause?

[PVDaddy]

arrest: 1. To stop; check: a brake that automatically arrests motion; 2. To seize and hold

[altius]

Love to see some film of these would be Bubka's!

[coachjvinson]

Coachjvinson: The feedback from the vaulter is that a hip extension, post take off is the key ingredient to initiating a purposeful and forceful trail leg swing - when the trail leg hip is extended forward, the trail leg swing naturally follows

So base on your last post, did you mean to say in your original above statement When the drive knee hip is extended forward?

great question...
will take me just a bit to get back to you on this but I do have an interesting answer; the correctness of which is another matter entirely and remains to be seen!)

Forgive me if I seem excessively technical in this description; it is simply in an effort to communicate effectively...

Hip extension occurs when the knee is flexed downward through the contraction of the Hams and Glutes: typically, forceful hip extension/triple extension is discussed synonymously with "power to the ground" in the olympic lifts and the athletic transference resulting from training the olympic lifts correctly...

Hip Flexion (i.e. Hip Flexors) raise the knee and thigh... the conclusion is that in TF jumps - Pole Vault included - there is a simultaneous/coordinated hip flexion with the drive knee/lead leg and hip extension in the takeoff leg/trail leg...

My thoughts recently - as prompted by a veteran coach whom I would be unwise not to listen to...

Is that a purposeful completion of each will yield/create a better energy transference post takeoff in the vault...
Maybe this is fools fodder on my part...
Maybe not...
There is an advantage to "Keeping Things Simple... Just not TOO Simple..."

What I am describing is similar to the concepts of transitioning effectively from the penultimate to the ultimate/takeoff in the the long jump - the transference and similarities are not 100% and there may or may not be a direct correlation to the vault...

Like I stated previously...

...I do have an interesting answer; the correctness of which is another matter entirely and remains to be seen!)

After all, how can you effectively push the pole if your feet are not on the ground??? I'm not saying that it cannot be done, I am simply posing the query...

Thoughtful replies and insights are greatly appreciated...

[KirkB]

Petrov:

The quickness and depth of the take-off greatly influence the technique of all the next elements of the vault: the hang, swing and rock-back. ...

I don't like the word "hang". It sounds too passive to me. I think this may be another case where Petrov said some Russian word that was similar to hang while stretching, and the translator chose to call it "hang" instead of "stretching". I doubt that Petrov meant "hang" in a passive sense.

I also don't like the word "rock-back", but I also used that word back in my day - simply because that's what everyone else called it. Since THERE IS NO TUCK, there is also NO ROCK-BACK. Instead, THERE IS A CONTINUOUS SWING TO AN EXTENSION. I don't blame Petrov for this term, since it's such a common PV term. It just doesn't describe Petrov technique very well.

... Kirk, can you "feel" this "release" (stretch-reflex)? Of course this is not enough force to complete the swing, but does it not help initiate it? ... this action will catch the stretch-reflex at the prefect moment and will result in a swing that is as fast and deliberate as humanly possible! Much faster if they had not stretched beforehand. I have seen few vaulters that can whip as fast as Bubka or Duplantis and I believe it is how they take full advantage of this principal.

I've compared my Bryde Bend vaulting technique to Duplantis' here (6th post down on this page): http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15483&p=116460&hilit=duplantis+bryde+bend#p116460

They had a LOT of similarities!

... can you feel that point of maximum stretch, initiate the full body whip at that exact moment and never have to be concerned with whipping to early (You said that's not possible but what if you did that prior to full penetration?) or to late and having a passive pause?

I don't know how many different ways you expect me to ask this same question. I'll repeat ONE way, and then give you ONE MORE thing to think about ...

If you refer to a sprinter's stride "timing" as a stretch-reflex, then YES, it's the same as that. A sprinter takes his next stride at a precise moment after the last stride is complete. Clearly, any pause between strides would be too passive - a big no-no. A sprinter would never think of pausing between strides. Ditto on the stretch-whip. Or should I say "Stretch. Whip.". You will notice that this is precisely what I have on my tag line: "Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. THERE IS NO TUCK!". I haven't changes this for quite a few years now, as I think it's clear and concise.

If you DON'T consider a sprinter's stride "timing" as a stretch-reflex, then NO. Call it what you like - it is what it is. It's the same as a sprinter's stride - learned from years and years of sprinting, just like I learned from years and years on the highbar, and also three intensive years on short run (9-step) vaults.

Kirk

[KirkB]

Here's my FINAL analogy:

A baseball shortstop, throwing to first base ...

He fields the ball and throws it to first. Time is limited because the runner is quickly approaching the bag.

Does he:
(a) stretch his arm back all the way, then throw the ball forwards?
(b) stretch his arm part way, then throw the ball forwards?
(c) not stretch his arm back at all, but just throw the ball forwards?

To get the optimal stretch (whatever it takes to get the runner out), how far back is "part way"?

How will he know whether or not he's stretched his arm back far enough before he throws the ball?

Now let's change this to a center fielder catching a Texas Leaguer (one bounce) and trying to put the runner out at first. Same questions.

If your answer is (a) then is this a stretch-reflex or not? Why?

What might be the differences between how the shortstop throws the ball and how the fielder does it? Why?

Notice that I didn't use the analogy of a pitcher, since a pitcher has ample time to wind up and stretch back before he releases the ball, whereas a shortstop or fielder must catch the ball and throw it before the runner tags the base. So TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE for the them, but not for the pitcher. This is more equivalent to pole vaulting, where TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE!

What analogy do you think is closest to the PV stretch-whip - the shortstop or the fielder? Why?

Kirk