pushing back out during the swing?

[PVDaddy]

Bubka's first 6 meter vault: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UwBaf8f98

[PVDaddy]

This is what Brian Mac had to say about the use of the arms during the downswing:
Both arms initially push upwards and then in a continuation of that move press forwards influencing the pole bend. At the same time the left leg starts to swing forwards
The hips remain back
The push-press action of the arms should be maintained as long as possible
Swing & Extension

Ideally your centre of gravity remains as low as possible until the bend of the pole is at its greatest so as to gain maximum horizontal distance. Aim for a high centre of gravity as the pole recoils to gain maximum vertical distance. http://www.brianmac.co.uk/polevault/

[altius]

"I think that the concept of a pole vault tap is a relatively new one and was not thought about or coached for by most in the past."

Here we go again - inventing terms (as with negative inversion) for elements of technique that good vaulters have always emphasised. Take a look at what Warmerdam did and said -probably before you were born.

[PVDaddy]

Altius, Care to add something constructive to the discussion? Oh that's right you and Agapit are pull fans during the downswing, just like the old timer never did! This occurred to you during your Vodka epiphany during the famous ski trip! I call it the biggest cockamanie bull that ever was mentioned regarding the vault! More like Russian and Australian propaganda attempts to destroy the U.S vault dynasty we use to enjoy! The gig is up!

[coachjvinson]

the 640 pull concept to accelerate the rotational swing speed and momentum has merit...

IMHO...

takeoff, tap, pull...

simplify...

V

[coachjvinson]

Many believe there also exist a second opportunity for the vaulter to perform another tapping action at the top of the swing as the gymnast does at dismount and is the subject of my future research.

not quite...
specifically, The tap should take place 180 degrees opposite the release... IMHO

REPENT!!!

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[IAmTheWalrus]

Altius, Care to add something constructive to the discussion? Oh that's right you and Agapit are pull fans during the downswing, just like the old timer never did! This occurred to you during your Vodka epiphany during the famous ski trip! I call it the biggest cockamanie bull that ever was mentioned regarding the vault! More like Russian and Australian propaganda attempts to destroy the U.S vault dynasty we use to enjoy! The gig is up!

What's with all the trolls these days. It seems to alternate between Bussabarger and PVDaddy. This is one of the more ignorant posts I have ever seen. I really don't care at all what your opinion about vaulting technique is. I'm perfectly content to watch you and Kirk go back and forth pretending you both know everything about the vault. I would rather be out there vaulting and coaching. I'm unsure where your assumption that you've nailed down the pole vault to an exact science comes from though.

For the record. I pull, and I pull hard. AS a result I've gone up a pole and PR'd several times. The same is true of the vaulters I coach. Food for thought.

I'll let you get back to your convoluted explanation of pole vault motions and coaching of your technical model. Good luck with that.

[PVDaddy]

Like the old world war 2 "AMERICAN" bombers use to say. "You know your getting close to the target, when you begin receiving all the flack!

Coachjvinson and all quotes below:

Similarly, there are coaches that emphasize solid swing mechanics but miss the shoulder dynamics involved in the "tap" Until recently, I was in this group; now I am a convert, advocate and a work in progress... and I am very thankful for the guidance of several athletes and coaches for this... "THANK YOU"

Very confusing statement. Of course having elastic shoulders is very beneficial and initiates the downswing at the moment you come to the end of your stretch! This point is true whether you employ a tap in your vault or don't. Many do this yet lack a TAP swing. Please clarify.

the shoulder joint(s) should be closed with an impulse which moves the arms forward quickly/slightly - the whip kick occurs simultaneously... in my understanding...

Your statement could not be further from the truth. The shoulder joints should be left open and flexible. The initial move is upwards not forward and it should be continued as long as possible, throughout the entire downswing, not quickly/ slightly.

if you look at "Bubka's first 6m clip (BClymer)" my understanding is that the TAP/SWING begins at 03:55

No it does not. The 3:55 frame that you point out is very close to the active-I position which is in fact the END of the TAP swing not the beginning.

basic tap fundamentals involve going from a hollow to arch to hollow position...

the first hollow is the plant with arms forward, stretch C is the arch, and then tap/whip to hollow position...

Your description of the TAP swing is completely incorrect and horrible! The fundamentals of the tap involve going from a Hollow position (reverse-C) to the first I position (Avtive-I). The vaulter is not in a hollow position at plant but perfectly erect! The plant is not part of the TAP swing as the tap swing does not begin until after penetration. Furthermore you did not even mention upward and forward extension of the hand in your fundamental description.

there is not a TAP impetus following the downswing/whipkick... at this point, if you are talking about tap or trying to tap at this point, you have missed the fundamental concept IMHO...

Your trying to tell us what the TAP swing is and you have missed the entire fundamentals!???

PVDaddy wrote:
Many believe there also exist a second opportunity for the vaulter to perform another tapping action at the top of the swing as the gymnast does at dismount and is the subject of my future research.


Coachjvinson:

not quite...
specifically, The tap should take place 180 degrees opposite the release... IMHO

What does that even mean not quite specifically? Sound like you are afraid to take a stance on this subject and that's fine, but stop being so vague. Just say you don't know. I'm not sure about whether there is an additional opportunity to improve your vault with a tap at the top of the swing either, but, am open to the possibility. I made that clear. CoachJvinson I am the one who has been describing and promoting the foot tap during the downswing (180 degrees opposite the release as you put it) from the beginning of this thread. Have you been reading?

the 640 pull concept to accelerate the rotational swing speed and momentum has merit...

IMHO...

takeoff, tap, pull...

simplify...

Oh, so M640 no longer teaches pulling during the downswing CoachJvinson? You say it says pull after the TAP (takeoff, tap, pull...? Which is it? If you want to pull during the downswing like Agapit, Altius, or I am the Walrus, then go have your KOO KOO KEE CHEW! LET THE READERS BE WARNED THIS PROMOTION OF PULLING DURING THE DOWNSWING IS VERY POOR TECHNIQUE! Good technique is the reo-extension of both hands, upward and forward, with the pole, throughout the entire downswing, from Reverse-C to the Active-I position. Not sure what Kirks position is on this anymore. I believe he told me once that he resolved this issue with Agapit and determined that all though it looked Bubka's arms were being extended with the pole he was in fact pulling through the shoulders during the downswing. I now KNOW, that's a bunch of bunk! Russian, and Australian poopaganda! Petrov, Werner, Clymer and Mackenzie know better! So do I! Hope you learn that too, all you young aspiring vaulters! Like I said; The Jig is UP!

[coachjvinson]

When you do everything right, a jump seems effortless as you defy gravity. Gravity always wins in the end, but it sure is fun challenging it.

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[KirkB]

I'm perfectly content to watch you and Kirk go back and forth pretending you both know everything about the vault.

But I'm not at all content with being put in the same sentence with PVDaddy, so this won't be happening. And I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I know everything about the vault. I don't, and I don't want the role of a know-it-all. I don't know who DOES know everything abut the vault, but I know who DOESN'T.

Not sure what Kirk's position is on this anymore.

I give up. No more posts on this topic for me. This thread has been going downhill for far too long already, and the more I post, the more it seems that I just incite PVDaddy to post more. Someone else can set him straight if he goes astray. Whoops, I mean WHEN he goes astray. I'm done.

Kirk

[coachjvinson]

The Pole Vault is a lot like religion and politics, everybody has an opinion on what is right...

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[altius]

One can only begin to feel sorry for you PVDaddy - perhaps you are compensating for something in your life. Just remember that Roman and I actually coach athletes and no matter what you write on pvp I guarantee you that we will always enjoy more credibility on this board than you will.