Russian Style Pole Vaulting..

[altius]

dj. Great stuff which adds mightily to this interesting discussion.
You will find that many if not most of the key issues you raised are dealt with in 'Beginner to Bubka" - and you will find little or no disagreement there/ However i believe it really is time to begin to use the 'right' words to describe what is important, even if we have to create those words.

There is a Chinese saying "The beginning of wisdom is when thing are given their proper names". This is why I made the distinction between a Free take off and a 'Prejump' -a term I came up with after meeting Petrov and he described his - at the time revolutionary - concept of the take off.

To cut a long story short and only to try to clarify what i see as a difference i have suggested that a free take off is a failed pre jump! As Bubka stated in jamaica he always TRIED
to 'prejump' -ie be in the air miniseconds before the pole tip hit the back of the box and "He achieved it a few times".This means of course that the rest of the time -but, as you correctly implied, probably not all the time - he had a free take off where although his 'toenail' was still touching the ground the pole was still straight -ie not loaded until after he left the ground.

I believe the terms 'free take off' and 'prejump' can be used to more precisely define actions - and are therefore more likely to generate wisdom - than 'transfer of momentum' - which can generate many different pictures of meaning. Note that i have also invented and used the word 'upspringing' to convey the essence of the take off. After watching hundreds of US vaulters at the summit on four trips I felt something had to be done to combat the prevailing-- ' take off under and simply let the pole rip you off philosophy' I saw; hence the new word which ties in with StabHochsprung -saut al la perche - salto con lasta etc. Finally I do not believe that the term 'Iron Cross' helps define what we are looking for at take off . of course if YOUR OWN athletes understand what you mean it is not a problem for your group - but I doubt it will be useful for other athletes. We need to give things their PROPER names -and this can start another discussion!

Thought for the week 'Wisdom can come from any place ,any time and in any language'

[dj]

agreed .. a universal language would and will help vaulters of the future...as well as present..

and looks as if this forum can go a long way in that direction...keep it going...

i have two main concerns with pole vaulting, both now and the future...

1. to stop the "overstriding"in the run.... i saw two 16' male high schoolers today.. great coach and great kids.. but they still tended to over stride on many, many jumps..

2. stop the locked elbow, stiff lead arm.. it is not a pole bending contest..

if we could do those two things over the next 5 years.. we would make more progress than we have over the last 30 years..


dj

[dj]

ps

i have a jump of ferfanova jumping 4.60... stop frame her takeoff just as/before the toe leaves the runway. that is what i called the "ironcross" position..

what term do we give it to be universal?

i feel that is the way to jump... she could have swung a little faster or a little earlier... so that she could have gone more vertical... but maybe a touch "softer" (.1 or .2) pole would have made it a little more dynamic off the top...

right force, right grip, right flex and right technique.... makes for some good vaulting

dj

[altius]

I believe the pole vault community -fraternity/maternity? would be better off if we agree to call this a 'free take off'. If that term becomes generally accepted as i defined in my previous post, i believe it will remove a lot of misunderstanding. If we do not do this every coach will develop their own language for the vault; this will make communication between coaches difficult and only serve to confuse athletes.

I believe that the reason Feofanova did not get vertical- because you are right there - was that she allowed her right leg to extend in the swing - this slowed down her rotation into the inversion so she did not effectively cover the pole before it reached full bend and therefore did not get the ride that Isinbyeva for example gets.

I realise that it is a brave foreigner who dares to criticise Toby Stevenson's technique but i believe that the way he extends his lead leg at the end of the swing is the same as Feofanova -i know it looks a bit different -but it has the same effect -slows down his inversion so that he is not quite ready to exploit the recoil. By the way i am also prepared to critically analyze both Tarasov and markov!! Both had similar problems but for different reasons.

It is worth noting that we are talking milliseconds here, but remember 'the secret to perfection is doing simple things extraordinarily well' - in fact that should be the quote of the week!

[dj]

i agree with the ferfanova analysis... but she could have delayed the drive because she felt she needed more penatration to swing safely..

i feel toby's action is created by the structure of the pole...and his effort to lower or change the center of mass to adjust and move the pole effectively to vertical..this action delays the swing and requires a tuck (shortening of the body radius) and shot to catch-up and get ahead of the pole....

earl bell's dropping of the knee was more of an unconscious move to lower the center of mass to swing the pole to vertical more effectively.. this was only necessary because of the grip, pole design and stiffness...

guy kochel was told if he would change earl's technique to the "classic knee" drive that he would set a world record.... after the world record was set others tried to copy the technique.. but it was an action as a result of several factors and trying to do the knee drop by design would never give the same result unless the other factors were envolved..

dave roberts who was a very strong lead knee drive vaulter even droped his knee on the 18'6 world record jumped in gainesville in 1976.. here again.. the action was a result of several factors... two of those factors are pole design and grip...

dj

[agapit]

Dave Roberts Kjell Isakkson, Roland Carter, Hans Lagerqvist, Bill Smalley, Mike White,and Dennis Phillips worked on this method in 1973?


Besides is there still a Russia?

Dave Roberts use to say " It is like runing towards a tree limb, all one fluid moment, you jump up to it, hips go up and the rest happens. Next thing you know you are over the bar"
He was a Medical Student who called this sensation "Somasetic"
The feeling of adrenilene or a flush in the blood stream that runs to the Somasetic Cortex of the brain to activate all that has been learn, practiced, or programed!
Steve Smith who did not use the Method of jumping before the tip hits that back of the box use to describe the THe vault as a "continuos chain of links, when you feel this fear up the back of the neck you know you got it the chain pulled tight." He would feel this fear down the back of his neck 3-4 strides out.
Bruce

SOMASETIC click below for more info

link

I agree it should not be called Russian. The fact that latest developments in fiberglass pole model came from Soviet Union does not make it Russian. And yes Soviet Union Does not exist anymore, however Russia is over 1,000 years old and going.

We in Russia studied very hard on people you mentioned in your response. Your quote of Dave Roberts is exactly the one we valued the most. Russia does not have the vaulting tradition as diverse as America; number of vaulters, years of tradition etc. Many vaulting books were translated into Russian such as Ganslen’s book and others. We studied hard on the American tradition and anyone who inspired to open new horizons should study and respect people that came before.

Besides, Bubka is from Ukraine not Russia. Gataulin, Egorov and Potapovich are from Kazakhstan, the rest of the guys are from Russia, but lets not call the model Russian, because it is not accurate description of its origins.

[agapit]

earl bell's dropping of the knee was more of an unconscious move to lower the center of mass to swing the pole to vertical more effectively.. this was only necessary because of the grip, pole design and stiffness...


dj

Coach I agree with you on this very much.

[agapit]

Pretty much anyone who coaches preaches free takeoff.

People who have/had free takeoffs:
Bubka
Markov (The best you will ever see)
Tarasov
Trandenkov

People who "American" style vault:
Americans
Galfione
Ecker
Brits

There are about an equal number, if not more 6 m vaulters in the second group than the first.

The vault of each individual kind of determines whether a free takeofff will benefit I think.

I, personally, vault much better when I am in the air before the pole hits.

In Reno 1993 almost all participants were sceptical of a free takeoff. Many were insulting about it. 12 years later most everyone is on board.

[agapit]

Pretty much anyone who coaches preaches free takeoff.

People who have/had free takeoffs:
Bubka
Markov (The best you will ever see)
Tarasov
Trandenkov

People who "American" style vault:
Americans
Galfione
Ecker
Brits

There are about an equal number, if not more 6 m vaulters in the second group than the first.

The vault of each individual kind of determines whether a free takeofff will benefit I think.

I, personally, vault much better when I am in the air before the pole hits.

Alan Launder told me 15 years ago that when he presented free takeoff idea in England coaches were to say softly disagreeing with the concept.

[altius]

The editorial of the NZ pole vault magazine implied I was crazy after I published my first article on what i have termed the 'pre jump' in 1989.

But what a great discussion above -really enjoying it! it has stimulated me to begin to write a paper for my website on why the dropped lead leg should not be recommended despite its apparently obvious advantages. I cant develop the idea in this forum because it would take up too much valuable space.

Perhaps we should call the model the Ukranian model since both Petrov and Bubka came from there?? As I say in the quote of the week 'wisdom can come from anywhere, any time and in any language'.

[dj]

not all.... agapit

; )

dj

[dj]

ps

but most didn't know how they were going to get their..
and were blinded by how far ahead bubka was..
deer in the head lights syndrome.

and how many of us spoke russian... not i

but i'm a pretty visual person and hope that has served me well...

dj