"Coaches Mark" "MID" Big Pole

[Mecham]

But do you guys see what i mean that we need to research and try out things before we can bash, or talk back about them? I can recall some things in the free-take off topic that was never really brought to mind. Have any of you achieved a true take off?

DJ,
Like run length? I grip 13' run from 86ish? and take off at 10'9 (i think thats what they are, they are from last year before i realized some things, so they could change)

[Bubba PV]

I agree with you. I do short run without regard to the mid but do follow the grip and height requirement. I'm 52 and can jump the entire list up to 11' with a run shorter (31') than my mid should be (39'). Once I get to long run then I follow it completely. Good comments! Thanks! Bubba

[souleman]

Yes Mecham you are right. "Don't knock it if you haven't tried it" was one of our old sayings back in the Hippee days. As to your question about whether or not anyone has achieved a true take off. In my opinion if a vaulter gets off the ground, that's a true take off. Now whether or not it's a great take off or not is why these subjects get rehashed and rehashed. I enter opinions and observations from a novice standpoint. I'm particularly interested in this thread due to the fact that in all of my pole vaulting I just "winged" the run. I never knew how guys (back in my day it was just guys) could be on the nuts every time. Lord knows, as competitors we would never give up any of our "jumping secrets". I've said it before that if a vaulter can stand at the top of the runway and "know" in his or her mind that he is going to make the jump, then he's probably taken care of 90% of the jump mentally, and he has a 90% chance of making the jump. What worries vaulters the most? Simple, "are my steps right"? Dj's chart has been proven time and time again to aid the vaulter in this one area of the vault. We as vaulters and coaches should utilize this tool to, if nothing else, place a consistancy in the ability for a vaulter to get the steps down. To argue any of it's points as "not the way to do it" is really rather silly. It's a proceedure, a practice, a documented step by step way of achieving a correct run up for a vaulter. Oh yeah, one more thing, it's the only proceedure that that I've seen that spells out what to do to achieve an optimum runup. What I would like to see is some discussion as to allowable "tweekings" of the proceedure monitored by DJ. I know somebody told me, (maybe it was Kris or Bubba or dj himself) that because of my height, 5'6" that My "marks" should be about 4" to 6" out because of the angle of the pole at take off wouldn't be as high as a 6 foot vaulter and therefore my plant would in fact be out by that much. Well, that made sense to me so that is what I've been using. Here's a good point in my opinion, why this is ok. As long as I'm hitting the take off mark correctly I find myself in a great position to do the rest of the stuff in the jump. Also, the jump doesn't hurt at all (this is an old guy thing I'm talking about here) .And, the more I practice, the better I get at it,the more confidence I have and the better chance I have of making the height. The chart's a keeper. Later..............Mike

[Bubba PV]

More good points. As a coach, the one I hear the most is "how does a 6'2" college vaulter have the same mark as a 10' girl vaulter?" One's running faster and covering more ground than the other in order to hit the same appropriate mark. Again, keeping it simple is the best.

I remember Petrov saying in Reno in the early 90's that Americans have great enthusiasm but constantly disobey the laws of physics. On the other hand, the Soviets have athletes without as much talent who have better marks because they ALWAYS attempt to go with the physicsâ€Â

[Mecham]

Yes Mecham you are right. "Don't knock it if you haven't tried it" was one of our old sayings back in the Hippee days.

Ha ha.... Well i dont mean it quite like that, or how someone in the hippee days would use it. but i guess you got the idea! Thanks guys.

[ladyvolspvcoach]

Since there seems to be some dissagreement as to the placement of the mid mark, can anyone tell us the origin and rationalization for the 4 step mid mark???

[rainbowgirl28]

Since there seems to be some dissagreement as to the placement of the mid mark, can anyone tell us the origin and rationalization for the 4 step mid mark???

It makes more sense for shorter runs. It makes sense that DJ would be anti-4-step mid since he is anti-short run

[dj]

heheheh... becca .. me anti short run!

but 4 doesn't make more sense for shorter runs unless those runs are less than 6 steps. if a vaulter is going to "adjust" for an incorrect run between 6 and 4.. 4 has no value.. the lose has already occurred by 4..

i'm preparing another answer.. just haven't completed it yet..

soulman you are on target.. and i will explain why i told bubba and others that i don't mess with the numbers much..

but a shorter vaulter will be further "out" at takeoff and a taller vaulter further "in" because of the triangle created at the takeoff.

and moving a shorter vaulter back at the "mid" to compensate seems logical but i would encourage every coach to look at the run first with the "MID" to "GRIP".. from the chart... before they move someone "in" or "out" based on how tall they are.

i caution for 2 reasons.. if the chart marks feel natural and looks natural and accelerated.. i would leave them there..this is where the coach and athlete can "use" the chart as a tool... of course the takeoff will not match the chart exactly because of short or tall.. have the vaulter stand at the box with the pole planted.. the takeoff toe directly below the top hand.. that is a natural point.. give or take a little.. personally i value the "MID" more than the takeoff.

the second reason.. we should be very careful not to move the vaulter too far out.. we have already been battling "OUT" steps for 20 years..always error on keeping the vaulter "tight" so they want stretch..and have to "get the feet down"... we need to "tighten' everyone up for the next 20 years if we want to break that world record.

i want to thank everyone for responding.... i think we will eventually hash out all the "if. and's and butt's"

more later

dj

[dj]

a quick ps...

earl's "magic" number and my 6 step "MID" is based on the same "stide length and stride frquency" matching a "grip"

give me your "grip" for your 4 step (2 left) PR and i should be able to give you your start mark..

dj

[dj]

Hey becca

I am opposed to anything under 6 lefts/12 steps for anything other than drills.. why?

speed and stride length are created by, first, acceleration to “breakâ€Â

[rainbowgirl28]

I am opposed to anything under 6 lefts/12 steps for anything other than drills.. why?

I know why you feel that way. I still disagree with you

[Bubba PV]

I've had lots of conversations with DJ about this and I've used runs under 6L (12 steps) as a quick warm up or if it's on short rest. Anything 6L or further I use the list. His comment about not being able to deal with speed is very true. On the other hand, kids who need to learn technical basics can benefit from runs shorter until the coach feels they are ready for "real vaults". I see, respect and have tried both and this is how I came about my compromise. At 52 years old I may not always get to 6L but the better shape I get in the more it happens, and "out comes the list". Above all - have fun! Bubba