Older film of Daniel Ryland

[VaultNinja]

Aside from all that. This is still a pretty sweet jump, and i'm stoked he posted it.

Food for Dj's thoughts.
Not that this goes in direct line with your post, just a random fact most people probably wouldn't know. After Daniels shoulder reconstruction, he was dying to jump. He jumped left handed for awhile (think his pr from there wound up being 5.10 from 10 or 12 steps), when he felt his right shoulder was strong enough to jump again, he switched to UCS poles because he felt the initial hit in the box was not as stressful on his shoulder (having shoulder problems myself and enjoying playing on all different poles over the years I happen to agree with this) but somewhere along the line he switched back to his Carbon Fastbacks and is looking pretty solid on them.
Daniel loves to mess around with building, flexing, trimming, even heating poles to get them the way he wants. I bet if you posted exactly what you think his pole should be like to best compliment his jumping style, he'd catch wind of it, possibly take it to heart. And I wouldn't put it past him to try just for kicks. But i'm just curious myself.

And I disagree with you heavily on the "vaulters are not crazy by nature", because I would say the majority are from what I've seen over the years, surrounding myself with them outside of track practice. I could only agree with you by one definition, sometimes "crazy" can be confused with calculated risk, and to us calculated risk just isn't as scary as it is to the average joe. But I still like to consider myself and my friends pretty crazy, cause if your not crazy, your sane, and where's the fun in that?

[dj]

Good morning,

First I want to say I have all the confidence in the world that Daniel and Earl will make the choices necessary to get Daniel where he needs to be. My input is unnecessary.

I didn’t join this post to go into poles specifically but to try and explain the “timing and technique” when reference was made to the technical comparison that Ladyvolspvcaoch and I had made to jumps made by Tim Mack and Daniel… both 19-4 and both with 16-4ish grips. We did have to flip Daniel to a lefty to match them up.

The pole had to be a part of that conversation because of the difference in the bend and timing, although both reached max height in virtually the same amount of time. The flex and/or pattern has to be considered.

I didn’t really start checking poles closely until after my conversation with George in 1981… he explained to me what he had tried to do with the pole he made for Earl that David used in Eugene in 1976 to jump 18-8 after his pole broke. Tully used the pole and actually had it in his Garage.. it was usable because of a “dent” three feet from the butt because of a discus from Plunknet of Stanford.

I checked the patterns against Mike’s best poles, Olson’s best, Dial’s best and Bubka’s best. After he jump here in 198...??? Indoor.. I think I’m correct. That's the year Buckingham Jumped indoor in LA.

Anyway. Bubka was gripping the top of a 5 meter pole with a 180 inch sail.. with a base trapezoid pattern that was 60”-60”-60”… pretty much the same as the “magic’ pole. Although George had said he wrapped the Magic pole a little different by changing how he did the spiril wrap...

Bubka was bending over 30% in the range of 32% in most of his jumps. The pole was bending symmetrical and the speed of his total jump was fast or faster than most jumpers, which told me, first he was not “over bending”. If he was over bending the pole would come back slow, it was not. And second that the “unbending” was not from a “rocket”/catapult effect but from the “transfer” of force from down to up, which let the glass and cylinder reform itself. Look at a high bar when a gymnast does a giant. It bends down when the force of the body mass is below horizontal and actually will bend up as the down force is released.

Side bar… I think the manufactures have show us in “lab” test that a 150 lb pole will not throw a 150 weight vertically as high as a vaulter can swing above the grip. Not even as high as the “averages” of above grip I have on my “MID CHART”.

5 meter poles had 18 to 21 inches of pole after the 180” of sail stopped, which put Bubka’s bottom hand “into” the top of the sail piece and not above it. I though this was important, first of all because his swing force had less chance of breaking the top of the pole off. ( I had a kid in 1978? Who was taught as a "high bar performer" that griped the top of a 14-6 or 15-0 pole and popped the top off of two new poles in a row. I found out real quick the he needed a pole that he was gripping into the sail piece on, not above it. I also knew from experience from fishing rods where the “weak” points would be.

Second.... I feel if the bottom hand is "into the sail" the forces will have a better chance of being distributed from the grip to the butt.. just like fishing rods.

With Bubka gripping the top of the pole it put his “mass”, after maximum bend, swinging through the pole at about or little above the center of the sail piece. I felt that was important to help “roll’ the pole to vertical. And with a taller vaulter like Tully with the same grip that point would be lower… and if we had a pole that we were not going to grip as high we needed the sail to be a little lower still.

I started checking poles at meets. Billy’s yellow cat.. Joe’s, I think higher sail (he was shorter and his mass traveled through the pole higher, Tuck vaulter in effect are doing the same.. so they possible can use a pole with a higher sail, or if the have a pole with a higher sail it may “require” that they tuck to use the pole effectively.

These “thoughts” have still held true for 27 years… last year in Finland and Germany I “predicted” the pattern by seeing the bend based on grip and “predicted” the “technique” based on pattern before seeing the jumper, over 90% of the time. That was girls and guys.. 4 meter to 5.90 jumpers…

Athletes adapt and some athletes can jump high on anything. I just feel that adapting causes inconsistencies… if a pole is too stiff or designed in a way that the athlete has to “force” the bend in some way or the other… even Bubka, then the timing is off, which means there is energy “leakage”.

I would rather maximize my “physics” and my Run-Plant-Swing…

Just like my chart. I would rather be “ON” six steps out, rather than 2 or 4 so I don’t have to adjust, not lose speed, posture, plant late or under… just attack and go.

I chose six because long jumpers (me) would adjust, if they were off, 5 to 6 steps out!! Why not be on 6 out, no adjustment, hit the board with max speed and win the meet.. and set a PR.

Sorry for the “chart” points… but same logic…

dj

ps... maybe i can find that Video and send it to master or Kirk to post...

PSSSS.. let me add another note that I haven’t addressed..

It was mentioned that Tim gets on his back fast.. whiter you consider that a negative or positive, that will souly happen because of the pole you are on..

He could not/will not get on his back unless the pole has allowed him to penetrated half way to the pit and to it’s maximum bend… and his pole did that in .49.. Daniel’s was .60ish..

Also much has been said about Tim “over bending”.. it is not an over bend if the pole “moved” through the jump as fast as it did, did not break and he got maximum height above the grip!!!!

Also a “flat” take off. His takeoff angle was “soully” based on the flex of the pole (all things being equal of course .. of run plant swing)

He took three jumps after this jump at 6.04… with a bigger pole.. same run, same plant…same speed.. he had a greater takeoff angle and less pole bend on all three, maybe only tried to finish one because he couldn’t penetrate (COULD NOT max bend the longer/stronger pole halfway to the box in .49 seconds)

Love you guys.. maybe we are getting somewhere with this.. and it’s not pole brand.. it’s flex and pattern…

[joebro391]

just something i noticed a while back. wondering what thoughts some people might have, DJ, specifically: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_rkF0hv ... re=channel

That's Casey Roche clearing 5.25 in high school. I personally think that's a pretty sound jump. I feel that his grip-width is a tad wide, causing a little blocking, but his swing makes up for it (never bend the knees or really breaks at the hips), but one this that I do notice his how LOW the pole bends...and the top looks nearly straight...this leads me to assume that the sail-piece is too long and too high on the pole. might that be a fair assumption?? I've always felt that the bend of a pole should be as high as possible. one of my former coaches would tell me that if you didn't jump, the pole would bend low and "spit you out". I personally see a low bend like this in a lot of VTechVaulter's (Brian) vaults and was wondering if it might be the pacer's that he's on...any thoughts?? -6P

Here's another vault my Casey and to me, the bend looks higher, but still not quite "ideal" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlufDKBAoyI&NR=1

[dj]

hye

the second one looks a little more symetrical to me...

it's a little blury.. are these different poles...

the second one bent more toward the top and probally would bend more symetrical with a grip more toward the top....

dj

[charlie]

First of all DJ is a close friend and i totally by in to the mid marks , but to think that you don't get lift, by a early inversion is to say a bow and arrow doesn't work! Serga's 20' plus jump, where he COMPLETELY passes through the L position and extends up and gets OFF the pole BEFORE he gets to the BAR, Says that the bow and arrow DOES work!!!!! The u-tube vaults would have been much more powerful had he inverted EARLIER and caught the unbending pole, he would have cleared it by a foot!!! The bow and arrow effect!!!

[jcoover]

Hey joebro,

First of all I don't think it's a terrific idea to call people out on this board who consistently check and post for having issues unless they ask for it or there is a topic about them. Seems kind of random to bring Brian into this especially in a negative light.

Second, you are talking about brands of poles leading to low bends. You mention Brian and Casey Roche as two examples of what you see as a low bend. You suggested that Brian's low bend might be because of the Pacer pole that he's on, but Roche is on Spirits and apparently still has a low bend. Doesn't seem to make sense.

Further, check out these two pictures of Brian, one from last year and one from this year - both from 5 Lefts, where it is even harder to get a high bend than from long run.



Those bends look pretty high!

[charlie]

The low bend comes ( in Brians case from a BLOCK plant that LOCKS the Hips downand sags the pole) A bent arm press support plant would eliminate a slow pole speed. If you have an opportunity to look at Bubka's winning vault of 19'4" in his only olympic win, you will see a perfect plant. With Brian's talent he would jump 2' higher with that plant!!!!

[KYLE ELLIS]

The low bend comes ( in Brians case from a BLOCK plant that LOCKS the Hips downand sags the pole) A bent arm press support plant would eliminate a slow pole speed. If you have an opportunity to look at Bubka's winning vault of 19'4" in his only olympic win, you will see a perfect plant. With Brian's talent he would jump 2' higher with that plant!!!!

Except Brian doesn't block out...

[charlie]

A straight left arm that early in the vault is a BLOCK! At the point in his vault in both pictures, his left hand should be no further FORWARD than his forehead!!!!

[KYLE ELLIS]

A straight left arm that early in the vault is a BLOCK! At the point in his vault in both pictures, his left hand should be no further FORWARD than his forehead!!!!

You are clueless. Tell me what bubkas arm looks like when his trail foot is even with his head??

[joebro391]

Jcoover: I think Brian is an excellent technician. I personally feel he should bomb-over 19' this year, easliy! However, And you're right, I shouldn't "call anyone out", but we're talking about poles here. In his most recent videos, he certainly looks to be getting a higher bend in the pole, however, whenever he's on his full approaches (bigger poles), the bend is very low. And I don't blame this on Brian, I feel it has to do with the way the Pacer's are made.

In Roche's case, well, perhaps it's a technical thing, perhaps it's the way the pole was made. not all Spirit's are made the same (even though i can't imagine how a pole could be made inconsistently on a production line ), but it happens. My coach has two 14' 160's, one rated at 18.5flex and one at 18.4 flex, and the 18.5 flex is certainly stiffer (and wider), then the 18.4flex (possibly even stiffer than the 17.8flex that I've jumped 15' on), but of course this may be due to ware&tare...But's that's why I ask these questions, to get a better understanding of the sport (and whether or not I should continue to stay away from Pacer's).

Perhaps Charlie is right about Brian blocking...I see a BIT of blocking in Brian's vault...could that be causing the low-bend? I don't know, I'm not experienced enough to make that type of call...but that's why I post these abstract questions, to learn. Look at Brian's 5.52-clear here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSUUdd2ATfE That's an extremely low-bend, but (and i know i'll probably be fought on this), but i feel that's because of a LACK of pressure with the bottom arm (certainly no blocking here), which Brian has fixed in the days since this jump...

Now watch this jump: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB8GbJs3UsI&NR=1 EXCELLENT JUMP! IN My opinion, the bottom-arm neither collapses OR blocks...and the bend looks MUCH higher and more ideal, up until the pole begins to recoil, then it looks like only the bottom is unbending, while the top 2/3's of the pole is straight. Perhaps I'm crazy, perhaps I just keep comparing it to Hooker's 5.96 vault, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJc9dQv4hXI Then bend on that pole looks perfect...but what do I know? For all I know, that video could have been filmed on a wide-angle lens, so it only appears to be a higher bend...When I look now at some of Bubka's jumps, I mostly see what dj would describe as a symmetrical, opposed to "high". So who knows at this point, what's technique, what's pole, what technique caused by a pole. SOMEBODY, please clarify for the world. -6P

[VaultNinja]

A straight left arm that early in the vault is a BLOCK! At the point in his vault in both pictures, his left hand should be no further FORWARD than his forehead!!!!

This is an elite thread brother, and I think your out of your element, cause your way off base on this one.