Uh Oh! Cross Country is over!!

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Re: Uh Oh! Cross Country is over!!

Unread postby Lax PV » Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:02 am

KYLE ELLIS wrote:"but for right now, i'd say, around 12-15 reps per set, with weight that you can comfortable control. that'll increase your strength without bulking you up much. The size and weight that you WILL gain with that workout, would be solid muscles"

Joe that is wrong. Doing high reps is what causes hypertrophy. You don't really gain mass by doing small amounts of reps with high weight. A body builder would actually do high reps 12 or more with about 75% 1rpm or so... What you recommended wouldn't increase strength much for an experienced lifter and if they used enough weight for the overload principle they most likely would bulk up.


By most people's definitions, 12-15 reps is endurance training. If you can lift 75% of your 1RM 12-15 times, that is probably not your true 1RM. Most hypertrophy workouts are in the 8-12 reps, with 60-120sec recovery in between sets. This rest interval is often ignored. IT IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE SETS AND REPS THEMSELVES. The appropriate rest interval will allow you to train the energy system that you are training for. As a pole vaulter, weight is a big concern, yes. I agree with that. But likewise, I jumped 13'6" weighing 150, and 15'7" weighing 162. The master's section has some good weight managing posts on there-which I feel are appropriate for all levels... not just us old farts. I like the 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps. I would suggest 4 sets of 12 with 60sec recovery, then the next week, go up in weight by about 10 pounds, and try 4 sets of 10, with 90sec. the third week, go up ANOTHER 10 pounds, and try 4 sets of 8 reps, with 2min recovery... see how this works out for you. For most lifts in the 125-175 pounds weight range, 1 rep I have found (and a lot of books suggest this) to be about 5 pounds. So if you were to prorate you max, for example;

1 set of 12 at 135 pounds is a 1RM of 180-185 pounds.
1 set of 10 at 145 pounds is a 1RM of 185-190 pounds
1 set of 8 at 155 pounds is a 1RM of 190-195 pounds.

Just like that, you made your workout about 5 pounds heavier each week, and got more and more into the "less reps, more weight" type of mentality. With all this said however, understand that doing 3 sets instead of 1 is going to change what that calculated max would be (I'll save the math lesson, but I have curves for that stuff too :) ). And in conjunction with one of my previous posts, if your 1RM is 185, base your workout off of about 155. The weights will feel really light, but it will lend to the best results for bar speed and training endevors outside of the weightroom--i.e. the runway.

My $0.02, try it if you'd like, try something else if you'd like. :yes:

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Re: Uh Oh! Cross Country is over!!

Unread postby chsvaulter » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:24 pm

HAHA im kinda leaning toward LAX vaulters advice, but im still conufused about what 1rm is?

someone want to explain it better?

oh and all the stuff your explaining is basically what i have been doing.
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Re: Uh Oh! Cross Country is over!!

Unread postby Lax PV » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:42 pm

chsvaulter wrote:HAHA im kinda leaning toward LAX vaulters advice, but im still conufused about what 1rm is?

someone want to explain it better?

oh and all the stuff your explaining is basically what i have been doing.



A 1RM is a 1 rep max... the most weight you can do for a particular lift, for just one repitition (only use this for main, multijointed lifts--i.e. squat, bench etc. NOT things like bicep curls, tricep pushdowns...etc.). A lot of high school athletes use multiple repititions (maybe a set of 5, or 8) and a max can be prorated out. Prorated is just a fancy way to say calculated out. If you have a multiple rep max, let me know the reps and weight, and I will let you know the max--howe ver, if you have a strength coach at your school, he should have a pretty good idea what it would be.

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Re: Uh Oh! Cross Country is over!!

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:54 pm

I guess this is another area we don't agree on. I have lifted like this gaining lots of strength and very little increased muscle weight. I succesfully increased my bench in college from 225 to 325 and my squat from 265 to 405... All the while losing 3 pounds (173 my freshman year and 170 my senior year.) The reason I believe that low reps high weight training doesn't cause a great amount of hypertrophy is because there is not alot of time under duration; while still accomplishing the overload principle. The reason 8-12+ reps causes hypertrophy is because there is enough time under duration to cause micro-tears in the muscle fibers which is what hypertrophy is based on... Think about it like this in lifting, the more you want to build up your muscles the more you have to break them down! To do this you want high reps and high amounts of sets. When I do 2 sets (2-3reps)of bench with 285lbs, and 305lbs) I dont feel sore the next day. Even though I could barely do the final rep... But if i did 10 or so reps of 225 I would be sore the next day.

Joe I think you think that in order to increase strength you have to increase muscle fiber size (thickening as you say?)... You can get stronger without gaining size through recruitment and CNS, that is what my low rep high weight theory is based on.... Its not really my theory yet something I learned.
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Re: Uh Oh! Cross Country is over!!

Unread postby Lax PV » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:17 pm

KYLE ELLIS wrote:I guess this is another area we don't agree on. I have lifted like this gaining lots of strength and very little increased muscle weight. I succesfully increased my bench in college from 225 to 325 and my squat from 265 to 405... All the while losing 3 pounds (173 my freshman year and 170 my senior year.) The reason I believe that low reps high weight training doesn't cause a great amount of hypertrophy is because there is not alot of time under duration; while still accomplishing the overload principle. The reason 8-12+ reps causes hypertrophy is because there is enough time under duration to cause micro-tears in the muscle fibers which is what hypertrophy is based on... Think about it like this in lifting, the more you want to build up your muscles the more you have to break them down! To do this you want high reps and high amounts of sets. When I do 2 sets (2-3reps)of bench with 285lbs, and 305lbs) I dont feel sore the next day. Even though I could barely do the final rep... But if i did 10 or so reps of 225 I would be sore the next day.

Joe I think you think that in order to increase strength you have to increase muscle fiber size (thickening as you say?)... You can get stronger without gaining size through recruitment and CNS, that is what my low rep high weight theory is based on.... Its not really my theory yet something I learned.


I know exactly the training that you are talking about...I haven't done a set bigger than 6 (other than maybe a couple sets of 10 for an ab exercise every once ina while) in a couple years now. Given the training experience of an athlete though, a think a training base may--or may not--need to be built. I have seen people have an anatomical adaptation phase of 2 weeks, and some with one for 6 months depending on their individual training age. So it is going to boil down to the training age--not the PR (however that should be correlated in most cases), nor the physical age--to determine what is best for any one athlete.


Nice work on the increase in strength, but now my question is how fast are you moving the bar if you are barely finishing a set of 3? Is that the sport specific movement that we hear about so often?

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Re: Uh Oh! Cross Country is over!!

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:03 pm

"Nice work on the increase in strength, but now my question is how fast are you moving the bar if you are barely finishing a set of 3? Is that the sport specific movement that we hear about so often?"

Very Very slow... But this is needed for the overload principle as you know. This is not very sport specific but I believe it lays the ground for developing power. If you are utilizing more of your fiber types the higher potential you have for power output... This of course has to be integrated with things that develop rate of force (moving a load quickly) That is why plyometrics, reactive jumps etc. are just as important as squatting. For example you need to develop a certain leg strength component (we will relate it to squats) before you can do certain types of reactive jumps and plyometrics, if not injury may occur or you might not be able to do them in a way to benifit yourself. Lax I know you know all this, it is more of an answer to evryone through your question.
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Re: Uh Oh! Cross Country is over!!

Unread postby Lax PV » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:51 pm

KYLE ELLIS wrote:"Nice work on the increase in strength, but now my question is how fast are you moving the bar if you are barely finishing a set of 3? Is that the sport specific movement that we hear about so often?"

Very Very slow... But this is needed for the overload principle as you know. This is not very sport specific but I believe it lays the ground for developing power. If you are utilizing more of your fiber types the higher potential you have for power output... This of course has to be integrated with things that develop rate of force (moving a load quickly) That is why plyometrics, reactive jumps etc. are just as important as squatting. For example you need to develop a certain leg strength component (we will relate it to squats) before you can do certain types of reactive jumps and plyometrics, if not injury may occur or you might not be able to do them in a way to benifit yourself. Lax I know you know all this, it is more of an answer to evryone through your question.


:yes: I like it. It was a more "conversation" question.

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Re: Uh Oh! Cross Country is over!!

Unread postby joebro391 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:22 pm

I like Lax's take on it, but when you went deeper with it Kyle, I understood your system, much better. To me, it's not about Mass, it's about density. After i made my last post, last night, i thought about going back and changing a few things, basically popping in those two, key words. When i used to lift, i've stated that i used to lift for bulk :no: . When i did this, I used very heavy weight, and only did set's of 4-8. and yes, i got stronger, but i also 'blew up' in size, mainly inpart to the inflamation. The idea of my workout, isn't to increase the muscle fiber size or 'thicken' it, it's to increase the DENSITY of the muscle fibers. Think about blowing up a balloon. Sure, it's MASS has increased, but there's nothing occupying the space; DENSITY has greatly decreased. And that's what it's about, DENSITY. From my experiences in the weightroom, doing low reps with high weight, increased the size of my arms and chest. But once i started increasing the reps and decreasing the weight, i started loosing size but getting stronger.

WEIGHT IS RELATIVE. For the weight you gain, is muscle. I think you guys are thinking about weight too much. It's not about weight, it's about compounding as much muscle fiber in a small arm that you can. LEAN, SLEEK AND ROCK HARD IS THE GOAL. weight is compensated for in the form of added strength. I gained weight, but lost mass. It's the reason why i can standing half-twist, and front-flip over people :D
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Re: Uh Oh! Cross Country is over!!

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:20 am

joebro391 wrote:I like Lax's take on it, but when you went deeper with it Kyle, I understood your system, much better. To me, it's not about Mass, it's about density. After i made my last post, last night, i thought about going back and changing a few things, basically popping in those two, key words. When i used to lift, i've stated that i used to lift for bulk :no: . When i did this, I used very heavy weight, and only did set's of 4-8. and yes, i got stronger, but i also 'blew up' in size, mainly inpart to the inflamation. The idea of my workout, isn't to increase the muscle fiber size or 'thicken' it, it's to increase the DENSITY of the muscle fibers. Think about blowing up a balloon. Sure, it's MASS has increased, but there's nothing occupying the space; DENSITY has greatly decreased. And that's what it's about, DENSITY. From my experiences in the weightroom, doing low reps with high weight, increased the size of my arms and chest. But once i started increasing the reps and decreasing the weight, i started loosing size but getting stronger.

WEIGHT IS RELATIVE. For the weight you gain, is muscle. I think you guys are thinking about weight too much. It's not about weight, it's about compounding as much muscle fiber in a small arm that you can. LEAN, SLEEK AND ROCK HARD IS THE GOAL. weight is compensated for in the form of added strength. I gained weight, but lost mass. It's the reason why i can standing half-twist, and front-flip over people :D


Even gaining density as you say would make you gain weight, a more dense object is a heavier object right? What I am saying is that you dont want to increase muscle fiber, or make them more dense; this will cause increase in weight. The goal is not to increase size or to become very dense, the goal is to become stronger using what you have... Some muscle fibers lay dormant, by using the overload principle you can utilize some of these dormant muscle fibers. It's not like you are packing extra fibers per square inch like it sounded in your post. The cells become more dense, no new fibers actually occur. Plus your nervous sytem can account for alot of new developed strength..
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Re: Uh Oh! Cross Country is over!!

Unread postby powerplant42 » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:56 pm

Right. If we could do it, we would maximize our absolute strength! Maybe it's time I bump my 'fitness' thread back up to the top...
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