Fred

[powerplant42]

Your argument is one I thought of beforehand... HOWEVER:

As you both say, it's good provided you're imprinting proper technique. But I was also expecting you to state the inverse of that. Imprinting IMPROPER technique is often worse than not training at all. That's because you have to unlearn your bad habits before you can start imprinting proper technique.

Remember THAT one? But that is why I said 'I lean heavily'.

I also believe that Fred would be better off without Coach Smith because he would be safer. I believe that he would be safer because he would instinctively do things more comfortably... however, RG said:

I think you overestimate the reasoning skills of high schoolers who lack guidance. High school boys given absolutely no guidance in the event are generally just as likely to overgrip and do something dangerous as those given bad advice.

Which I can't argue very well against. I will lend you that, yes, high school boys can be hammer-heads, but it would take a special kind of athlete to do this to themselves:

Fred starts his run, and jumps... He stalls out big and almost hits Coach Smith on his way into the box. "WOAH there Fred! What happened?" "I don't know coach, I just couldn't drive enough I guess..." "OK, well let's raise your grip up to the label then, shall we? You'll get a bigger bend, that should make it easier for you to get into the pit safely." "OK coach... I'm a little freaked out by that distance from the box though..." "I'll give you a tap then. Let's go..."

KB, also realize that Coach Smith is often not even around watching. I actually should mention what Fred does on days when Coach Smith is not even at the track, the usual circumstance.

ALSO realize that Fred is now a Sophomore... second year.

Remember that Fred is a rookie, so he doesn't know any more than Smith does when he picks up a pole for the first time.

I did not give much background on Coach Smith, but I did mention that he'd been coaching for multiple years. He coaches what he understands. He does not understand the Petrov model. But if he was a total rookie, is that not a problem? Should I try to teach Latin if I just began learning it myself? (But this is one of the main parts of the problem... coaches have nowhere to really learn other than 'on the job'. Not a good thing!)

With how tall Fred is and how high he's gripping, how many feet is he going to fall?

Enough. Boxes probably really hurt when you land in them upside down, even if you fall from ~10', Fred's usual maximum COG height... (Fred is a CANNON VAULTER. His COG typically peaks almost directly over the box, which is a very dangerous situation!)

What say you now? Have I swayed you?

[rainbowgirl28]

What say you now? Have I swayed you?

No. Come back to me in 10 years when you have coached hundreds of high school boys. Then tell me what you think they are liable to do with no coach around. I think you are just young and have very limited experience working with other athletes.

[powerplant42]

As in most cases, it depends on the individual and their situation.

Becca, believe me, I understand your point about recklessness... they may be just as reckless, or even more reckless! Even WITH A GOOD COACH some will STILL be reckless (as I unfortunately witnessed firsthand today)! But is it better for recklessness to go untouched, or have it be disguised as safety and encouraged by an authoritative figure? Which will have the greater impact on them if they coach (assuming they don't run into any 'good' coaches later on)?

[powerplant42]

I'm going to finish up Fred's meet now.

Fred is pleased with his clearance at 8'. He goes back to stay warm. Fred's meet is as follows:
8' O - -
8'6" X O -
9' X X P
9'6" X

Fred passed on his last attempt at 9' to be guaranteed a shot at a PR at the first meet of the season. Coach Smith came over and told him to 'grip it and rip it' again, and do whatever it took to get over the bar. The meet results were as follows:

Jed NH (along with 2 other vaulters)
Fred 8'6" (2 others)
Ed and Ted 9' (and 3 others)
1 at 10'
Red 11'

(Sound like familiar results, my fellow high school vaulters?)

I'll wrap up Fred's Sophomore season next story-post, and the posts after that will be wrapping up his high school career (1 post for Junior year, 1 post for Senior year... there is not much more to say).

[KirkB]

PP, as you read thru my replies to your points, keep in mind that I'm not going to debate this to the nth degree. In fact, I'm going to bow out of this thread (for awhile, at least), because:

1. I was a reckless vaulter in HS and my first 2 years at UW, so I'm probably not a good role model for that level of vaulting. I did "learn my lessons the hard way" and have something to contribute because of this BAD experience, but for the most part, it's lessons on how NOT to vault in HS.

2. My PR with a steel pole was 10-6. After that, I vaulted in the range of 12-0 to 14-3 in HS on fiberglass. i.e. I have no experience at jumping 8-0 on fiberglass. Therefore, I'm not speaking from experience when I say that when you jump 8-0 WITH A FIBERGLASS POLE, you won't be falling very far. Pardon my ignorance, but when you're vaulting 8-0, aren't you pretty much straight-poling it? If you're getting big bend at that bar, then I'll agree that it's dangerous. Since I lack experience about this, I'm going to refrain from throwing my 2 cents worth in.

However, I still stand by some of my statements, as you'll see ...

...

As you both say, it's good provided you're imprinting proper technique. But I was also expecting you to state the inverse of that. Imprinting IMPROPER technique is often worse than not training at all. That's because you have to unlearn your bad habits before you can start imprinting proper technique.

Remember THAT one? But that is why I said 'I lean heavily'.

Yes, I remember that one, and if Fred's a 2nd year vaulter then it's becoming a problem. I thought he was in his first year. You must have explained that several days ago - I don't reread every post over each new time you post. My statement was in the context of a first year vaulter going to his first meet. In that context, imprinting is not yet an issue.

I also believe that Fred would be better off without Coach Smith because he would be safer. I believe that he would be safer because he would instinctively do things more comfortably...

...KB, also realize that Coach Smith is often not even around watching. I actually should mention what Fred does on days when Coach Smith is not even at the track, the usual circumstance.

Speaking only from personal experience, I basically trained on my own in HS, and my coach worked with the sprinters and distance runners. That was his specialty, and ALL field events were done with very little supervision - except for the occasional student teacher that took those events on (except PV). Dangerous, yes. Was it a concern of mine at the time? No. I didn't expect technical guidance from my coach, and he didn't give it. He did think I was nuts for stalling out in probably more than half of my practice attempts, but he didn't interfere.

Looking back at that now, it might be easy to think that I was simply gripping too high. This is true only if I was swinging properly - but I wasn't! I pushed with my bottom hand (trying to emulate WR-holder John Pennel), and couldn't figure out why I was stalling out, so I pushed harder, only to keep stalling out. How ignorant I was, eh? But that's just how it was. So the only lesson learned that I can offer is to NOT push with the bottom arm. I've said this before, and I'll say it again ... I wasted 3 years of my PV career in HS pushing with my bottom arm. Don't do it!

I don't recommend this lack-of-a-coach situation to anyone, I'm just saying how it was. The alternative was to not vault at all, as there were no coaches with experience with fiberglass vaulting at the time. In fact, at our school, there wasn't even any coach that could properly coach steel vaulting. So should I just give up the event because I have no coach, or should I strive to do the best I can under the circumstances? I chose the only way I knew how, which was fraught with problems, but it was better than giving up the event. Actually, not vaulting at all wasn't an option that ever occurred to me. It was still fun, and I was still winning meets - easily. But I was DEFINITELY vaulting much lower than I should have IF I KNEW THEN WHAT I LEARNED ONCE I GOT TO UW.

This personal experience is why I say that Fred is NOT better off without Coach Smith.

With how tall Fred is and how high he's gripping, how many feet is he going to fall?

Enough. Boxes probably really hurt when you land in them upside down, even if you fall from ~10', Fred's usual maximum COG height... (Fred is a CANNON VAULTER. His COG typically peaks almost directly over the box, which is a very dangerous situation!)

I have a hard time visualizing a cannon vaulter jumping 8-0. Sorry, it just sounds way too low to be able to already identify a male vaulter as a cannon vaulter. I guess that's just my lack of awareness of modern HS vaulting at low heights.

What say you now? Have I swayed you?

The bottom line is that you haven't swayed me. Not even close. But I'm willing to agree to disagree about this, for the 2 reasons I stated at the top of this post.

In my previous post, I mentioned that Fred needs to learn how to stall out at low heights so that he will know how to do it at higher heights. I don't know why you didn't respond to that point, but I stick by that assertion. Vaulters need to be cat-like. I hope you get my point on this.

Kirk

[sooch90]

The problem is that you, powerplant, are creating the hypothetical situation to fit your argument. You can alter and shade the situation however way you please.

I think the reality is most coaches have SOME idea of safety, probably more than a beginning high school vaulter who's never heard of pole vaulting before. If all these high school coaches were really dangerous to their vaulters, then we'd be hearing about a lot more injuries and deaths among high school vaulters. Maybe the coaches don't know the petrov model, or maybe they teach blocking out wth the bottom arm. However they can still maintain some level of safety than a completely new vaulter would do so alone. Most coaches can at least teach the very basic aspects like holding the pole or planting it in the box, which alone significantly makes vaulting much safer than in the other situation where a beginning vaulter would have to figure it out for him or herself.

Many high school coaches may *limit* the development of *some* really enthusiastic beginning vaulters. What I mean by this is high school coaches may teach bad habits that may ultimately prevent a vaulter from reaching his/her potential, BUT this case is only true if that beginning vaulter is very committed to becoming as best as he/she can. These kinds of vaulters, in the absence of a coach to constantly reinforce bad habits, would then check other resources like polevaultpower, or BTB for more technical information. However, this then becomes a quesiton of potential instead of safety. Still, I think a lot of high school vaulters don't REALLY care that much about pole vaulting. They just do it to get out of doing sprint workouts or to just try it out cause it looks cool, but I don't think a lot of them are really actively trying to become really good. So, in most cases, I think high school coaches also actually help vaulters jump higher than they would alone.

Conclusion is, I think having a high school coach is better than having none, unless you're so interested in becoming a better vaulter that you'd be willing to branch out to a lot of other resources in order to get better. I'm also not sure why the big dramatic story about fred was necessary...

[powerplant42]

You are right Sooch, I can shade it to how I want it to be. I realize that, and it's unavoidable. I'm biased, because I had a preconception of how I wanted who/what to come across.

Ok... I'll start to get at my main points of creating this thread (and the huge dramatic story).

-Fred represents the average high school vaulter (that isn't just trying to get out of running). He is eager, willing to work hard, and, because of that, he listens intently to his coach.

-Coach Smith does not represent the average high school vault coach... he is on the very end of the bad part of the spectrum. I did this for a good reason. Like I said earlier, Fred is a direct product of his immediate influences (Coach Smith, Red, etc.).

-The reasons for the hugeness/dramatic story:
1. I like to write.
2. I felt like I needed to give details on everything in order to get people to identify with Fred and his conditions. I would say that the only important element that I don't see (nor do others I've talked with see) as generic is Coach Smith... If people identify, they can start to picture themselves in Fred's position and what they would have done... Most probably would have listened, and I would hope that that might get them thinking about how they can help to solve the problem of poor coaching in the U.S.
3. I am constantly repeating a common phrase in posts: "It depends." Well, now I've got an 'average' situation to work with (minus Smith). I'll add to this point later and turn things back towards the original reason I started to write this in the first place: developping a specific argument in the 'athleticism vs. technique' thread.

That last point brings me to these questions...
What mistakes were made by Fred? How could they have been avoided?
What mistakes were made by Coach Smith? How could THEY have been avoided?