The Stretch Whip Drills

[AVC Coach]

I'm not a fan of the bubka drill, especially swinging bubkas on the bar... It simply doesn't have technical value. It's good for inversion strength and maybe some coordination, but more efficient would be a simple deadlift: you get all the same things done and you don't get as red in the face!

You're way off on this PP. If done correctly, Bubkas can be a huge advantage in your technical development. You'll learn to swing your hips to your hands and not your hands to your hips (what you're doing now).

Ring swings (or Stretch Whip Drills), allow for more movement in your shoulders, making inversion much easier without being as technically sound. A solid high bar doesn't forgive those technical mistakes.

[powerplant42]

Training technical aspects requires a well simulated 'feel'. With a bar in the way, the COM gets displaced. So, I fail to see how you can have a well simulated feel.

[superpipe]

I agree with AVC, swinging bubkas and bubkas are a must for pole vault training. "Simulated feel", it's pretty damn close.

Training technical aspects requires a well simulated 'feel'. With a bar in the way, the COM gets displaced. So, I fail to see how you can have a well simulated feel.

Look back at this video master created of bubka, showing what is termed as a "Bubka":

http://polevaulting.johnaltendorf.com/misc/bubkas.wmv

Aside from straight poling, the pole is always in the way of allowing your shins to pass the pole and letting your COM move towards your chest, just like a highbar swinging bubka drill. Gotta have some core strength to keep the boby aligned and not let yourself flag out from the pole.

[powerplant42]

True!

But as a technical drill it is best done on rings or a rope, NOT a bar. With a bar, there is much more muscular effort, whereas with a rope or rings one can put their hips where they should be and shoot them up more.

Not saying the drill is worthless, I'm saying that it should not be treated as a technical drill when one is performing it on the bar because of the aforementioned reason ('feel'/COM).

[superpipe]

Like I just mentioned before, the pole will always be in your way of moving your COM over your chest, so how are rings or the rope more technical if they allow your COM to get into a position it will never get into on a bent pole? I do like rope and ring drills too, but highbar bubkas are more technical.

Also, highbar bubkas require alot less muscle than you think. It's tough to learn a bubka, swinging or not. It does require core strength, but that's a must in pole vaulting anyway.

[KirkB]

Aside from straight poling, the pole is always in the way of allowing your shins to pass the pole and letting your COM move towards your chest, just like a highbar swinging bubka drill.

SP, this is true only of tuck/shooters ... or non-Petrovers. I've never hit my shins on the pole, I've never had to modify my technique to avoid hitting the pole, and to my knowledge, other Petrovers don't have this problem either. A close look at any Bubka vids should prove this.

This is becuz of the centripetal force generated is exactly like the shoot-to-a-handstand on the highbar (where you also don't have to worry about hitting the bar) ... and becuz the pole is still somewhat horizontal (not vertical) when the shins pass it.

With the Petrov Model, by the time the pole straightens, the shins have already swung around and risen above the pole.

There's a pic of me with my shins already past the pole here: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15483&hilit=bryde+bend#p111401. The only body part that looks close to the pole is my knee, but I've never ever hit my knee on the pole either.

Kirk

[AVC Coach]

Training technical aspects requires a well simulated 'feel'. With a bar in the way, the COM gets displaced. So, I fail to see how you can have a well simulated feel.

Your COM is getting displaced because you are not doing the drill correctly PP. You are missing out on some great advice. You haven't done enough in the vault to even know what a "feel" is! There's a lot to be said about being a good student. You should listen more and analyze less. I mean, if you were following your own theories and jumping 17-18 feet, then my ears would have to perk and I would become a PP student. It's almost like you're trying to re-invent the wheel though and it bothers me when I see you trying to give others technical advice. There's a plethora of information on this website! Harvest as much as you can without trying to plant your own seeds!

[powerplant42]

Didn't get this one from myself... KB was the one who actually convinced me. It's his seeds that you're after...

But I think we're deviating a bit too much from the thread's topic. Maybe I'll start a new thread sometime soon.

[superpipe]

KirkB,

First off, great pic! I'm not sure I really follow your comments or maybe we are interpreting things differently. You pic shows exactly what I'm talking about, just as the Bubka video from master. Your COM is not balanced over your chest and it can't be because the pole is in the way. You had to perform a perfect highbar "Bubka" drill from that position to attain a nice vertical extension. Without core strength to hold your alignment during your extension you would flag right out because your COM is in front of you. On rings, a rope or straight poling you can easily swing your shins over your head to move your COM right over your chest and not need much core strength to hold your alignment during the "inversion phase" of the vault.

I think "tuck-n-shooters" actually move their COM over their chest more than Petrov'ers since they usually straddle the pole with their legs. Even then, they don't quite get their COM over their chest.

That really is a sick pic.

[KirkB]

... maybe we are interpreting things differently.

Yes, I think we are. [sigh]

You pic shows exactly what I'm talking about, just as the Bubka video from master. Your COM is not balanced over your chest and it can't be because the pole is in the way.

That's not the way I see it ... or rather ... FELT it. For simplicity, an observer can consider the location of the COM in relation to the vaulter's body and the ground ... since his weight goes directly DOWN ... to the center of the earth ... becuz of gravity. However, due to the centrifugal force of swing about his hands (on the pole or highbar) ... and due to the somewhat equal and opposite centripetal force of (a) resisting the centrifugal force that's trying to pull him off the pole (or highbar); and (b) the additional force that he applies in the centripetal (towards his hands) direction when you EXTEND ... the location of his COM is no longer the "center" of his body's weight. Instead, he needs to compensate for that additional centripetal force that he's adding to the vaulter-pole system. This is more complex than simply considering the COM and gravity.

It's my observation that tuck/shooters don't SWING (upswing) as much as Petrovers. Let's even assume that they've lost ALL of their swing by the time they tuck. So for a tuck/shooter, the COM is the one and only spot at the center of your mass that's important ... since there's no longer any centrifugal or centripetal forces in play.

Not so for a Petrover. My still frame is very close to one of Bubka's still frames in the vid that Master showed us, and my body actions were very similar. What I FELT was that I pulled UP and BACK very hard during this "Bubka" motion. To be honest, I can't actually see much of my centripetal force (that I felt so clearly) while stepping thru Bubka's vid in repeat mode. So if you can't see it either, then I understand ... but it's there!

Perhaps an easier way to explain this is to talk thru the identical motion on the highbar ... the hip-circle-shoot-to-a-handstand. The hip-circle creates a centrifugal force, stressing your body to fly away from the bar. You fight this by (a) hanging on; and (b) extending your body. The result is that you exert centripetal forces that end up shooting you skywards ... above the highbar.

If you started from a hang ... directly below the highbar ... then you would need to shoot directly THRU the bar. This is where the only force in play is gravity ... pulling you directly down thru your COM.

But if you're in the upswing phase of a hip-circle when you extend your legs skywards, then the bar isn't directly overhead. You've passed it by this point in time, and when you shoot straight up this time, you're already in front of the bar, so you can shoot UP and BACK ... without flagging out. (In fact, if you don't shoot "BACK" a bit, you'll flag out.) This is identical ... in my experience ... to the same extension ("Bubka") action on the pole.

I don't think tuck/shooters feel these centripetal forces that I'm talking about ... at least not nearly as much. But do any of you Petrovers (or at least anyone that's good at hip-circle-shoot-to-a-handstand) understand what I'm trying to explain?

Kirk

[charlie]

krik-I have said before, you are dead on. Your move is exactly the Bubka move. That is why the tuck and shooters don't get much of a lift up off the end, even if they jump on a big pole.

[superpipe]

Kirk,

I absolutely agree with what you are saying. I didn't want to dive into that detail in my post. I did not mention the forces applied during the take-off and swing. You still need core strength to initiate the extension of the legs vertically, while dropping the shoulders ( "shoot back" ). Core strength keeps the body aligned vertically to overcome the forces at play. Granted you have circular forces helping you move vertically, but you also have forces against you which include your static COM being in front of you as seen in the picture, the entire pole movement forward and the fact that the pole is recoiling forward. You need to counter act these forces by using your core muscles to keep you aligned as you extend and drop the shoulders. This is the main point I was trying to make for highbar bubkas and swinging bubkas which force you to use core strength to keep your alignment while you extend and drop the shoulders. You don''t need any core strength to hold your vertical alignment when you extend and drop the shoulders using rings, a rope or straight poling since you can swing your trail leg way over your head, literally, before you start your extension. You can't swing your trail leg over your head on a bent pole before you start your extension, at least not enough. Bubka got close using a 17' pole since he almost had a 90 degree bend when he finished his swing.

I'm speaking to petrov'ers above. Tuck-and-Shooters make everything worse for themselves by losing the swing energy into the system. I won't dive into that detail.

Rings are great for beginners, since anyone can swing to inversion the first time. The rope adds more difficulty, but you can still swing your feet way over your head. Swinging Bubkas on highbar are the closest thing to the real deal. That's the main point I'm trying to make.