Left Arm doesn't collapse when going inverted.What do I do?

[ForBUBKA!]

This has been happening my whole season. My coach has told me that I need to jump up more, move the arms right away, and to sweep quicker. These all help me invert faster, yet I still seem to be stiff arming when my arm should be collapsed when I am inverted. I agree with my coach all, just wondering if there are any other thoughts. Any suggestions?

[Chaebo]

I am amazed that no one has commented on this sooner... Although I can not give you an answer which will magically solve your problem or the answer to your personal vault since I haven't seen it. I will tell you what I teach. (AGAIN NOT SAYING IT IS CORRECT FOR YOU IT VARIES BY THE TECHNIQUE IN EACH VAULTER)

With my vaulters we focus on creating a HIGH Pole bend (NOT HOW MUCH BEND) to create lift out of the pole and the constant pressure of the top hand keeps the pole rolling to vertical. Now to do this we must focus on driving our chest thru the shoulders and pressing the pole up and back (NOT FORWARD AND IN) If you we do this correctly when the bottom arm travels to the above the pole the arm will actually have collapsed already (Have yet to have a vaulter strong enough to keep pressing out when done correctly). Next we swing to the "I" position still pressing both arms up to speed up the down swing. (A CONTROVERSIAL IDEA BY MANY COACHES) and as we swing to the top we drop our shoulders once our feet have come to the top of the pole and hips are flat with the head or preferably passed the head. If this is all done correctly the pole should be arced across the pelvis region of the body not inline with the hip. This allows our center of gravity to rest on top of the pole bend unless you are a tuck and shoot vaulter whose vaults tends to chase the pole bend rather than resting on top of it. The bar arced across the pelvis turns the pole into a kind of an upside down dead lift technique. Once are here drop your shoulders don't pull with your hands until you are completly inline with the pole.

I do not know if this helped you. And I can not promise that this is the HOLY GRAIL Technique for vault. This is what I have coached in the first few years of my coaching and have been very happy with the results thus far. I actually invite people to for the lack of a better term critisize my method. Because that is how we get better as an athlete and coach. I invite you to try and use any of it. If it doesn't work or you don't like it throw it out. If you like it then glad i could help. Good Luck and I hope I answered a question or 2 of yours in there somewhere.

[KirkB]

... we swing to the "I" position still pressing both arms up to speed up the down swing.

Sorry, I don't agree with this at all. Based on physics, it should be obvious that pressing the bottom arm up will SLOW DOWN the swing - not speed it up. Pressing prevents your body from swinging. It may make the pole bend more, but it will kill your swing. The faster the swing, the more continuous the chain of motion - all the way thru the extension and flying off the top of the pole.

... The bar arced across the pelvis turns the pole into a kind of an upside down dead lift technique. Once are here drop your shoulders don't pull with your hands until you are completly inline with the pole.

Exactly! This is the sensation that I've felt during the extension. I actually call it the "clean" part of the "clean and jerk", but same idea. "Dead lift" kinda implies that you do nothing after your legs and back are straight, whereas there's more to it than just the "clean" part. You still keep going - like the start of the "jerk" part, rather than end your body motion once the "clean" or "dead lift" is finished.

You can search for "kirk clean and jerk" for a fuller explanation of this technique. You'll find 13+ matches, and my 2 best descriptions of this are the ones in the "Bryde Bend" thread.

However, having said all this, I don't think this is ForBUBKA's problem. It's hard to tell without vid, but I suspect that it's 2 of the 3 things his coach says: He needs to jump up more and "sweep quicker". I disagree with the middle part though - "move the arms right away". There's nothing that needs to be done with the top arm except hang, and anything you cognizantly "do" with the bottom arm is going to alter the natural bend of the pole and alter your natural swing. Both no-nos.

The reason I didn't reply to ForBUBKA's post earlier is because I get tired of repeating the same advice time and time again. This is also why I now recommend that people search for my advice from (mostly) 5 years ago. Take it or leave it, at least my advice is persistent and has stood the test of time - for over 40 years now!

Petrov advice before Petrov! And Continuous Chain of Motion advice before Roman's 1992 article!

If you don't like my advice for whatever reason, then at least listen to Roman's Continuous Chain of Motion advice. It's spot on!

http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=16118&p=116573&hilit=continuous+chain+model#p116573

Kirk

[altius]

Chaebo - "Although I can not give you an answer which will magically solve your problem or the answer to your personal vault since I haven't seen it."

That is precisely why sensible coaches have not tried to provide an answer. Without video it is an absolute waste of time and even with good video, much of the advice offered here is close to black magic coaching.

[Chaebo]

Sorry, I don't agree with this at all. Based on physics, it should be obvious that pressing the bottom arm up will SLOW DOWN the swing - not speed it up. Pressing prevents your body from swinging. It may make the pole bend more, but it will kill your swing. The faster the swing, the more continuous the chain of motion - all the way thru the extension and flying off the top of the pole.

First let me say the top hand pressure was a typo meant to say bottom. I do not teach to use the top hand for any part of the swing.

Anyways, with that said I have seen many debates, lectures, conferences and coaches. Discuss the use of the bottom arm pushing up. Which I do teach to create space and move the pole to vertical. It is something that made a drastic change for my vault when i was in college. I have debated trying to coach a vaulter not to use it but have had success with my vaulters using it. So it is not necassarly a stubbornness to change but a fear to fail one of my kids.

With that said I am also not content being just an average coach. I am doing all I can to try and improve for my sake and the sake of the kids I work with. So keep the critisizing coming and anything you have to say that might potentially make me better advice, criticism, anything I'll happily take it.

As for you ALTIUS, you're right this probably won't solve the problem of this vaulter but i wanted to try my best to help him because he seems to be much like my vaulter. And, I know what it feels like to be a vaulter who is stuck with no one helping. (It's demoralizing and pushes vaulters away from the sport.)

Now back to ForBubka, Altius is correct a video would be much more beneficial to finding a way to help you. So if you have some please do not hesitate to post.

[KirkB]

Chaebo, since Tarasov is your favorite vaulter, I took a look at his 6.00 and 6.05 vaults on youtube, and I don't see much bottom hand pressure at all. Maybe a tad, but nothing that slows down his swing - he's Petrov Model all the way! He has a good swing DESPITE any slight bottom arm pressure that he might be applying.

Whoever said that you shouldn't queue on doing anything with the bottom arm is right - it needs to be a reflexive action. I doubt that Tarasov is worrying about what his bottom arm is doing.

The problem with advising someone to do something with the bottom arm is that they inevitably do TOO MUCH with it.

I suppose the eye is in the beholder, and some of you will say that Tarasov is cognizantly doing something with his bottom arm, but even if that's true, he's figured out how to keep his swing going in a continuous chain of motion. You won't get that if you purposely try to apply pressure with the bottom arm yourself. Unless you're a 6.00+ vaulter like Tarasov, I suppose. It needs to come naturally.

And the vaulter should be queuing on driving his chest, hips, and legs. Being aware of what THEY'RE doing - and purposely moving the chest, hips, and legs faster and faster over time is what's going to improve your swing.

Kirk

[Chaebo]

Kirk B- With this being true I can see where my success has been in coaching. With my main focus being posture, chest, hips, trail leg, drive knee and last but not least by anymeans speed/accelerating thru takeoff. But, Over the years I have placed a lot of value on using the bottom arm to create space, maximize take-off angle, and keep the pole rolling to vertical with a high bend. I do have the luxury for this year of coaching my vaulters in the off season. So the next question is where to start.

I have been doing a lot of short approaches working the hand grips up starting as little as one left and working our way back to 5 trying to get to vertical. Which I know you are a fan of just by following you and your suggestions to others throughout the forums. We have been doing this trying to get to vertical but starting around 4 lefts we start having problems getting to vertical when the pole begins to arc a little more. I do have video of a vaulter jumping but i don not want to take over this athletes forum.

Any other suggestions you might have?

[KirkB]

... Any other suggestions you might have?

I suggest you create your own topic with your specific technical issue that you wish to discuss. That will allow us to focus more on your questions and concerns rather than ForBUBKA's.

It will help if you post the vid of your vaulter in your new thread - as a point of reference.

FYI, (other than on the highbar) I learned most of my PV technique on a 9-step approach (4.5 lefts) with a full bend, so I have some specific suggestions to make for that length of run.

I first learned to vault with bamboo and steel poles (10-6 PR) before converting to fibre, so that is the basis of my encouragement to learn to vault from a short run (less than 9 steps) without a bend. As you have also read from Altius, a bent pole vault is really just a series of straight pole vaults - one after the other all in the same jump!

Kirk