Run Discussion

[jumpbackin]

But we will agree to disagree - if you are an athlete i will inerested in following your career and if you are a coach i would be interested in seeing how your athletes progress. Just remember a quote from btb -"A coach has a thousand careers, but an athlete only has one.

[/quote]

I think I know who Dtrack is. It's ironic, he is a 16+ vaulter stuck at 14'6. He's at 14'6 not because of his approach (that part of his vault is really quite nice), but because he has a weak swing and no clue how to invert.

[dtrack28]

Watching a clip of bubka on http://www.stabhoch.com/ only confirms what I've been saying all along. For any running activity your foot hits out in front of your C.M. and you do claw at the ground to continue forward movement. This is no different in pole vaulting. The thing that nobody is getting is that almost all of your power is derived from you "pushing" off of the ground, NOT clawing with your hamstring. My original post was that you should do deadlift as this push is where you get all of your energy in a sprint. Maybe this is why your quads are so much stronger than your hamstrings???? Do you claw in the pole vault when you run? Yes. But should that clawing motion be what you focus on? No, it isn't where the force in your run comes on the runway. Not only does the "push" off the ground increase speed on the runway, BUT (and I know altuis will love this), it increases how far/high you can jump at the takeoff. Polevaulters run more upright and with slightly higher knees than most other events but that doesn't mean that the force used to propel them in the forward direction is radically different than any other running event.

P.S. Jumpbackin, do I know you too? Inversion isn't the problem. I have trouble with keeping my trail leg long (terrible flexibility used to cause me to suck it up towards my body real bad), and it does need to get a lot stronger if I want to start moving 15+ foot poles.

[ADTF Academy]

The thing that nobody is getting is that almost all of your power is derived from you "pushing" off of the ground, NOT clawing with your hamstring. My original post was that you should do deadlift as this push is where you get all of your energy in a sprint. Maybe this is why your quads are so much stronger than your hamstrings???? Do you claw in the pole vault when you run? Yes. But should that clawing motion be what you focus on? No, it isn't where the force in your run comes on the runway. Not only does the "push" off the ground increase speed on the runway, BUT (and I know altuis will love this), it increases how far/high you can jump at the takeoff. Polevaulters run more upright and with slightly higher knees than most other events but that doesn't mean that the force used to propel them in the forward direction is radically different than any other running event.

Dtrack your post doesn't make sense to me are you saying the deadlift works the hamstring or quad. Or are you unsure.

If done properly the deadlift is designed to work your hamstring and gluteus not your quads.

Secondly do you know what this drive your talking about is comprised of. The pawing or clawing action some are using is the same as what your saying just a different way and at a different time during running or the approach. The reason the squat is talked about and used to develop speed with the deadlift and step up is because of the biomechanic term IMPULSE. As you run you want to create a great impulse. The greater the impulse the greater the speeds and acceleration you can acheive.

An impulse is created in two ways with a great force over an extended period of time (acceleration/drive phase) or a small force over a short period of time (max speed/top end).

The clawing/pawing action of top end speed takes the second into account. The desire is to apply a little force (the cyclying of the legs) by tapping, clawing, pawing (which ever term you want to use) against the ground to create the shortest ground contact time as possible. Hence a small force and a small contact time.

On the other hand during acceleration or the drive phase you are desiring an incrased ground contact time and increase force production to create a great impulse to overcome inertia. This is when the squat comes into effect and the lower hip position. Thus the reason for the high pole carry early in the approach so that the vaulter has less inertia to overcome. During the drive or acceleration phase there is a noticeable driving action behind you as you attempt to apply as much force into the ground as possible similar to that of a squat except you have a slight forward lean. Even more exaggarted during a sprinters start out of a starting block.

Now to think the same thing is used during top end speed is ridiculous and goes in my opinion with the commonly used generic statement run on your toes. Blah blah blah. Why would you want to run behind you when you are at top end speed. If your driving extremely behind you then you must be leaning forward to counter this force being applied behind you which is fine during accleration when your overcoming inertia not when your are at top end speed. If you carrying a huge/long pole in your hands this forward lean is enhanced and you stumple down the runway and slow down. Your center of mass is to far out in front of your feet and you fall forward and your stride is wrecked.

Now as Altius has stated the stepping slightly in front of your body during the middle of your run from the end of the drive phase till the start of the planting is correct becuase as the pole tip is starting to drop your COM moves forward. Early in the approach with a high pole carry this stepping infront of your boddy is less noticable or non exsistent because with a high pole tip your COM is for the most part similar to that with or without a pole. Later in the transition you should notice begin to notice the foot slightly infront of the body as your COM moves forward. However, once the plant phases commense and leading into the plant and takeoff the foot should be once again positioned directly under you not out infront or it will cause a breaking action to occur as you perform an active takeoff similar to that of the long jump.

You must look at the approach in its phases not all together. Each segment desires different positions of the foot. Another key issue is how many steps are you taking in your approach. If your taking under lets say 14 total steps than your approach will be way different than if your taking 18 total steps or more. Yes that is only 4 more total steps but a huge difference is speed created and distance covered with each stride. The pole carry mechanics will be different because the length of the pole will be very different

[ADTF Academy]

well here's a picture of your beloved Yelena Isinbayeva (I'll find one of bubka later). http://gblx.cache.el-mundo.net/elmundod ... bayeva.jpg

By the way I would be very interested to see what point of the approach this is. Because it is a weird position she is in. My bet is during the drive phase or first 4 steps of the approach.

[Carolina21]

I would agree with Dtracks last post as far as the push being the crtical phase in the sprint, it comes back to what your intention should be.... And to prefaace this I also agree with ADTF that there are distinct phases which must be considered, any one picture is not a good way to prove a point for side or the other.
I think most people would agree that in sprinting the idea is to come as close to a foot strike even with or even behind your CG, this is the athletes GOAL, maybe not what actually happens but what they attempt to achieve. Just like we all want a vault with no passive moment (no one can actually do it 100% but that is what we are trying for) In the vault approach the goal should be the same shouldn't it?, to maximize the active movements (striking the foot in front of the body is not active from everything I have learned about sprinting)? Yes a huge heavy pole will add torque and cause your foot strike to be slightly further ahead of your CG but still I bet the vaulter who strikes their foot closest to their CG has the potential to run faster. So shouldn't we be trying to achieve a foot strike beneath our CG even though no one can actually do it.... shouldn't this be our intention?

Sprinting is pushing. Of this my mind will not be changed, I guess I would need some more info to be convinced running mechanics from the hip down in the vault are that drastically different.

What the real question should be: Did Bubka and the other greats INTEND to claw? I don't think they did, could be wrong.... I think this foot strike was a result of the pole's weight but not because the claw motion in sprinting was surperior for the vault or what they were trying to do.

I would like to hear some more thoughts on this from the foreign crowd.... obviously this is an area where the US crowd and the foreign crowd have some disagreements. Why would a vaulter want to purposely strike the foot in front of the CG, I guess I don't understand this idea, I understand why it happens and why there is no way around it with a pole in your hands but I don't get why you are saying to do it and for the claw to be you intention, it goes against most everything I have heard as far as running mechanics.

[dtrack28]

If done properly the deadlift is designed to work your hamstring and gluteus not your quads.

Not true. The deadlift is the most complete lower body lift you can do (even better than squats). It works your hams, quads and gluts with emphasis on the latter two. Therefore, the muscles used to apply force to the ground are emphasised and the muscles used in the clawing motion are firing but aren't the primary target of the lift. And I should have clarified that a set of plyos immediately after each deadlift set should be done followed by plenty of rest between sets.

Secondly do you know what this drive your talking about is comprised of. The pawing or clawing action some are using is the same as what your saying just a different way and at a different time during running or the approach

I know what I'm talking about, but I don't think you do. The clawing everyone is talking about is the act of actively pulling on the ground while your foot is in contact with the ground. While this does occur, I believe it should not be the focus of the run as you get all of your force (which equals speed) from pushing off of the ground. Your foot doesn't just leave the ground once your c.m passes it...it should actively push off of the ground before it brought up towards your butt and put onto the ground again.

Look, I agree that pole vaulters run more upright than sprinters and there feet may strike further out in front of them than a sprinters would (although this would only cause braking, a loss in speed). My argument is just that in order to increase speed you need to increase the force you can apply to the ground in the verticle direction. This is why the deadlifts and plyos are so important. If you can increase the force you can apply to the ground while pushing off you will increase stride length which is one thing a sprinter should focus on in order to increase speed. Speed is stride length x stride frequency (i hope we can all agree on that). There is almost no difference between the stride frequency of an olympic vaulter and that of a high school sprinter. The reason the olympic sprinter is so much faster is because he/she is pushing off of the ground with so much more force that his strides are covering a greater distance. He still can put his feet down at the same rate as the high schooler but each time he does so he has gone a meter or so further. Want an example? Go here http://www.bearpowered.com/resources/ and click on the clip titled The Saga of 2 Runners.

No matter what position you are in, the force applied by clawing (horizontal force) is one tenth that of pushing (verticle force). These studies apply to any and all "constant running." This means sprinting, jogging, and even pole vaulting.

[ADTF Academy]

Not true. The deadlift is the most complete lower body lift you can do (even better than squats). It works your hams, quads and gluts with emphasis on the latter two. Therefore, the muscles used to apply force to the ground are emphasised and the muscles used in the clawing motion are firing but aren't the primary target of the lift. And I should have clarified that a set of plyos immediately after each deadlift set should be done followed by plenty of rest between sets.

I would love to see how you do your deadlifts. How much flexion do you have in your knees and how much rising action of your hips do you make. I think you do a different style of dead lift. Is it the romanian deadlift or the dtrack deadlift you learned from someone.

I know what I'm talking about, but I don't think you do. The clawing everyone is talking about is the act of actively pulling on the ground while your foot is in contact with the ground. While this does occur, I believe it should not be the focus of the run as you get all of your force (which equals speed) from pushing off of the ground. Your foot doesn't just leave the ground once your c.m passes it...it should actively push off of the ground before it brought up towards your butt and put onto the ground again.

I agree your foot does push off the ground behind you because of the cyclic actions, but not because you purposely do it but because you create an impulse. If you purposely drive yoru foot behind you it would cause forward lean. This is wanted during acceleration, but not during top end speed. If you actively attempt to drive your foot into the ground behind your once at top end speed your will spend way to much time on the ground and thus slow you down. Once up to top end speed you should speed as little time on the ground as possible. But then again I guess every olympic coach int he United States is wrong and you must be smarter than some of our Nations best coaches. Cause that is what they are teaching in our Development Centers. Not increased ground contact time but decreased contact time.

Look, I agree that pole vaulters run more upright than sprinters and there feet may strike further out in front of them than a sprinters would (although this would only cause braking, a loss in speed).

The issue is not just the vaulter but the vaulter and pole system. When you talk about your COM you must take into account the pole your holding onto. It is part of the equation to find your COM. With the pole tip out any degree past vertical it will change the position of your COM. Hence when the pole tip is in front of your body your foot should land slightly in front of your hips. Not way out in front just out in front of you.

My argument is just that in order to increase speed you need to increase the force you can apply to the ground in the verticle direction.

The actually way to look at it is in terms of a parrallelogram. Speed is not based on vertical or liner but a combination of both. Your more or less a projectial. By the way here is a barn burner for you. You say to increase speed. What about when your at top end speed. Are you concerned with acceleration or top end speed. During any part of your approach when your accelerating meaning your velocity is increasing then I agree. What we are saying is once your near or at top end speed.

There is almost no difference between the stride frequency of an olympic vaulter and that of a high school sprinter. The reason the olympic sprinter is so much faster is because he/she is pushing off of the ground with so much more force that his strides are covering a greater distance. He still can put his feet down at the same rate as the high schooler but each time he does so he has gone a meter or so further. Want an example?

A focus on either stride frequence or stride length only will slow you down. if you increase your stride length but decrease your stride frequence then you don't go any faster. You must be more dynamic. I think this is what you mean. But then again I could be wrong. Covering more distance naturally is by yes increaseing your strength it is also by enhancing your mechanics and your bodies ability to handle the forces and cyclical natural of higher speeds.

No matter what position you are in, the force applied by clawing (horizontal force) is one tenth that of pushing (verticle force). These studies apply to any and all "constant running." This means sprinting, jogging, and even pole vaulting.

The issue is are you talking acceleration or top end. I agree 100% during acceleration hence why you have a forward lean. But once at top end speed you can't go any faster your goal should be not to slow down.


Here is a barn burner for you. Who wins in a 100m dash. I contend it is the person who slows down the least. If you have two atheletes who can hit lets say 9 m/s max speed. If one can hold that speed through proper mechanics than he will beat the other athlete everytime.

We can go into more examples as well but the issue is still the same once you hit top end speed you can't get any faster your maxed out all you can do is attempt to hold that speed for as long as possible.


Please tell us are you talking during acceleration or once you hit top end speed.

[ADTF Academy]

Go here http://www.bearpowered.com/resources/ and click on the clip titled The Saga of 2 Runners.
.

I watched your video. I will agree they hit the ground at the same time. But watch it again very carefully. Which person breaks contact with the ground sooner. As it progresses the guy who is running faster speeds less time on the ground. By the last step shown it is almost 2 frames or more which is a great deal of time when it comes to top end speed.

Also their running mechanics are so different. The guy that is faster has much better technique than the other guy. The slow guys foot is landing in front of him and he has a back ward lean which is causing the increase ground contact time and decreased speed. He is also letting his toe drop so his ankle is not locked in a power position also increase his ground contact time. If he fixed his running mechanics he would increase his speed big time. From the appears he is under the notion of I must increase your stride length. Which is causing him to reach and have slow ground contact times. BOOOOO

Back to my equation for a great impulse.

Low force x less ground contact time = greater impulse.


By the way I love dartfish it is an awsome program.

the guy that is running faster is spending less time on the ground than the slower kid. Same overall tempo but way different impulse created.


Once again you can't focus on stride length or frequency. Focus on running mechanics and doing anything in your power to have a solid cyclical action of your legs and decrease your ground contact time. Once again this is during top end speed running. During acceleration your mindset is different

[ADTF Academy]

Ok I will admit when I stat something wrong.

The deadlift does work the quads but as a secondary function.

The main function of the deadlift is to work the Hamstring and Glut.


You got me there. Though I did say secondary and that depends on how low you can go.


here is a decent example of a romanian deadlift that I could find.

http://www.joeskopec.com/joeskopecrdl.mpg


The reason I perfer this style is if you notice what does it resemble. HMMM the motion to get upside down otherwise referred to as a BUBKA on a highbar.

[dtrack28]

I watched your video. I will agree they hit the ground at the same time. But watch it again very carefully. Which person breaks contact with the ground sooner. As it progresses the guy who is running faster speeds less time on the ground. By the last step shown it is almost 2 frames or more which is a great deal of time when it comes to top end speed.

You are right the guy running faster spends less time on the ground. But look at where his foot is striking compared to his center of mass. His foot strike is almost directly underneath his body which accounts for the less time spent on the ground. The slower runner strikes further in front of his body, causing him to "break" (like in a car kind of break), which slows him down and doesn't allow him to push off the ground as efficiently. Here's where it gets interesting...with your foot striking closer to your center of mass and trying to lessen time on the ground like you suggest (an idea that I think I'm begining to like)...YOU DON"T HAVE THE FOOT/LEG POSITION OR THE TIME TO "CLAW" at the ground as your main source of force. "Clawing" would essentially keep your foot on the ground longer as you put it on the ground in order to pull to generate force. Unless I'm missing something, the combination of what I'm saying (focus on pushing off of the ground to generate the most force) and what you are saying (lessen the time your foot is in contact with the ground) almost support each other and there isn't much to argue about. By putting your fot down closer to your center of mass you not only force yourself to rely off of pushing off of the ground rather than clawing, but you also shorten the amount of time your foot is in contact with the ground. Sounds reasonable to me.

he is under the notion of I must increase your stride length. Which is causing him to reach and have slow ground contact times. BOOOOO

Sorry, want to adress this first before I go into the romanian deadlift. If you are reaching to increase stride length you do lose speed. That is why I never suggested reaching and practicing on running with a longer stride. Many coaches do this and it is wrong. The way to increase stride length is to PUSH off of the ground with more force than you used to, causing to you to travel a further distance before making contact with the ground. As you get stronger your strides will begin to lengthen and with proper technique you will see huge gains in speed.

here is a decent example of a romanian deadlift that I could find.

http://www.joeskopec.com/joeskopecrdl.mpg


The reason I perfer this style is if you notice what does it resemble. HMMM the motion to get upside down otherwise referred to as a BUBKA on a highbar.

ok, first the romanian deadlift isn't a true deadlift! Also called the straight legged deadlift, its main focus is the glute, hams, and lower back as you said. This is a completely different lift than what I have been talking about this entire time. Second, this lift really doesn't stimulate all of the same muscles used when a vaulter moves from the end of the rockback to becoming inverted. When inverting you are fighting the force of gravity, your hams have little to do with it. It is mostly lower back, hips, and glutes. I don't think in any way that you are suggesting to substitute the romanian deadlift for bubka's (the drill) but I don't think the fact that it just LOOKS like something a pole vaulter does justifies it as a lift pole vaulters should do. However, in this case it isn't a bad supplemental lift to your regular leg routine (which should include real deadlifts, and plyos).

Hopefully somebody will find a way to put what I and ADTF Academy said into one super theory, because I think some good ideas are being thrown around here.

I have one more question...if speed is not an important part of the vault, doesn't it seem funny that the fastest guy on the runway has the world record?

[altius]

If the running drills Petrov uses are anything to go by -and i believe they are, because he is too good a coach to waste time doing things that have no value - Bubka certainly intended to claw - as the film clearly shows him doing. Take a look at a more recent Petrov protege - and another world champion - Gibilisco - and you will see the same characteristics in his run up - as you will with Rogowska and many others. For those who like still photos take a look at the one on the front of Peter McGinnis's 2005 report of mens pole vault approach run velocities -and tell me where and how that vaulters foot is likely to stike the ground.

Think about it - if the foot is NOT moving backwards as it strikes the ground it must have a braking effect. This is precisely what happens to many vaulters as they move onto their take off foot - they poke the foot forward (instead of executing an active claw strike)_ and it must have a braking effect in the same way as you move both feet in front of you to brake when you slow down rapidly at the end of a run - or if you jump off the platform of a London double decker bus when it is still moving.

Also any decent male vaulter is moving at 9.00m/sec plus - if they try to make foot contact with the ground directly under their centre of mass - what will happen? - Take a look a good sprinters and see where the initial ground contact is in relation to centre of mass.

But it seems nothing will change the mind set in evidence among many posting here. Everyone is entitled their opinion - BUT it really is time for me to say goodbye - until August at the very least.

[dtrack28]

Thank you altius for beating a dead horse. We have all said that you do claw the ground when you run...no one has denied this statement, not even me. What I and one other person have been saying is that your power does not come from that clawing motion. Everything you have said is correct in terms of elite vaulters clawing, but a majority of the energy they put into the runway is in the pushing part of the run. Since you have yet to refute this point (and I don't know how you could say that a majority of the power in a pole vaulter's approach comes from clawing) maybe its good that you are taking a break for awhile.