Negative Inversion!

[altius]

Well it looks as though that was a waste of time! But there you are. Just remember that I have continually indicated that I have been merely a messenger who has tried to take Petrov’s ideas to a broader public – and of course show how they could be applied with young vaulters.

So the critical question is ‘why did Petrov not make a great issue of the area you are focusing on’? Could it be that he did not think it was important? This would certainly explain Bubka’s response to Roman’s question asking what he thought of after he took off.

When I first met Petrov in 1985 all I wanted to learn about was ‘the rock back”!!! All he wanted to talk about was the ‘free’ take off and ‘covering’ the pole! These two elements are also the focus of any of his writing that I have seen. I have met him many times since and watched him work with Izzzy in Formia and my athletes in Adelaide. I have heard him speak at Reno twice. His focus was/is always first on the plant and take off and then covering the pole. It would appear that he believes that everything else is irrelevant! What I have been trying to point out –obviously without great success – is that if an athlete covers the pole effectively while maintaining pole speed, the phenomenon you call ‘negative inversion’ is virtually inevitable.

But clearly you are going to charge on to glory regardless. Good night and good luck – but do try to apply these great insights to actually coaching some athletes at some point.

So I suspect that if you believe that Vitali is king you will have to go and spend time with him to see what he really does believe about negative inversion - either that or spend some time with David Butler, who has spent more time with Vitali than any other coach I know.

[CoachEric]

I know exactly what David would say about "negative inversion", but if I posted it I'd probably get in trouble with Becca

[grandevaulter]

Page 42 paragraph 6. Explains the advantages and science of swinging past vertical and covering the pole. I personally don't view it in the negative quadrant because it changes depending on which side you are viewing the vault.

[PVDaddy]

Altius, I am beyond amazed at the places you have been, the people you have met, all the research you have done, the pictures and film you have taken, the books that you have written and the speeches you have given regarding the Pole Vault! Lastly, I want to point out all the years of coaching you have done (what is it like over 30 years or more?). I mention that last because of your life's philosophy of not allowing your learning to exceed your deeds! It seems that anytime anything of major significance in the pole vault world has occurred, you were there! As if by divine appointment! A great part of your entire life has been centered around the pole vault! How fortunate you have been to have had the financial means to make your love of something a career!

I need your help with something because perhaps my understanding of it is incorrect? What exactly is the Petrov Model? I always assumed it was this written document: Pole vault-the state of the art by Vitaly Petrov published by the IAAF? Is that what it is or is it more than that? Does one have to look at other writings he has done or other speeches he has given to fully understand his complete model? If that is it, it seems to me it is incomplete and does not give its students/athletes/coaches enough information to develop a model to pole vault the way Bubka did! Were is the information about how to achieve a free take off? Were is the information of how to Pull or Push? With what hands, at what time? Were is the information of how to fully cover the Pole? You said that his entire Model is built around these very concepts? Were is it? Why is it that these, the most critical concepts (I totally agree with that) he has said so little about in this Model? He goes into great detail about run up and posture and I know how critical that is?

Its seem that after years of hashing out whether a free take of is in fact a reality, this has been finally excepted and has been largely resolved, even among beginners! I see more and more coaches and vaulters employing this technique with success! What a delight!
Also I am seeing more coaches and athletes coming to an understanding of proper plant techniques and penetration into elasticity then ever before and not concern themselves with trying to bend the pole(blocking out). There is very little consensus, and much confusion, however, with the use of the arms throughout the swing and into and after inversion, even among the elite, with still so many rowing and tuck and shooting! I think this is the very reason so many are doing such a pitiful of job of covering the pole (getting fully inverted on top of the pole)!

When I use the term, "negative inversion", I am simply implying covering the pole to an extreme position if you will. To a position beyond vertical (if a vertical line was drawn behind the spine of the vaulter, the vaulter spine would lean to the left of this line while in this position.) If the pictures in your book and the freeze frame in your video demonstrate this (like my avatar does or even better) then we are on the same page!

If you read my original post, were I have tried to make this clear, you will also find why I believe this is not just an "inevitable position"( I agree with you that it is the result of a perfect run up, plant into free take off and perfetc movement through C-I-L positions) but, an advantageous one, and why? I believe I am correct in this and even if I am mistaken (i don't believe I am and have backed it with the physics of My theory), what is the worst that will happen? Vaulters will make an extra effort to improve the former to try to achieve this position and some might even get on top of the pole for the first time?

You and Morris feel it may be dangerous? Is it any more dangerous than trying to invert from underneath the pole like most do?
It is NOT dangerous and in fact is more safe for several reason! First of all a vaulter is going to have to PERFECT all the former's to even get in this position! These are all thing that GUARANTEE the pole is moving toward vertical! The vaulter cannot go any further then the top hand (unless he lets go? But that's true in any vault!). When the hip of the vaulter make contact with the top arm it bounces off of it, or is at least FORCED forward toward the cross bar by the top arm as the pole uncoils (the pole uncoils toward the crossbar). Also as the vaulter is in the process of performing the bottom arm pull this forces body of the vaulter toward the crossbar and positions them for the turn. It is INEVITABLE!

[PVDaddy]

Grandvaulter said:

Page 42 paragraph 6. Explains the advantages and science of swinging past vertical and covering the pole. I personally don't view it in the negative quadrant because it changes depending on which side you are viewing the vault.

Altius, So you agree it is an advantage!?

I think in terms of left to right, with zero to the center and 1 the right and -1 to the left, if zero is the perpendicular. The starting line to the left, the crossbar to the right.

[altius]

You and Morris feel it may be dangerous?
Morry may have had a question about that but I never said it was dangerous - for Bubka - or for folk any who have managed to exploit the concept of a continuous chain of energy input. What I did was to use the extreme position shown in that and other film of Bubka (can't really remember what clips I used in Reno) to pose the question - "How can he actually have the confidence to drive up and AWAY FROM the bar, in the certain knowledge that he will finish up safely on the pad? An action that would be incredibly dangerous for someone who for example was gripping too high, or had taken off a long way under, or had picked up the trail leg instead of making a fast long sweep, or done any of the myriad things that can kill pole speed. They would be left with no where to go except into the box. Perhaps that is what Morry was implying.

But I can no further with this. If anyone wants to know what I believe about the inversion for young athletes let me know and I will post the appropriate chapter. In the meantime some of you may be interested to know that I returned to part time coaching in the vault in December, partly in a mentoring role with one of my former athletes who is now coaching, and partly looking after two athletes in the vault - one a decathlete. In a couple of weeks I HOPE to be able to post film of a sixteen year old lad vaulting in our national junior championships - only jumping 4.50m at the moment but that is with the 'handicap' of a 13 second 100 metre time when finishing 7th in our State under 18 championships. They say a picture is worth a thousand words and I hope that the film I post will be more than adequate to show yet again that, whatever the debate that swirls around this great event, young athletes can begin to look a little like Bubka - my mission in the vaulting component of my life!

Again some of you may be interested to learn that my fourth book "Developing skilful players through Play Practice", dealing with the more general issues of teaching sport, was published on March 1st. The first edition is used as a text at Ohio State University. Even fewer of you will be interested to learn that tomorrow March 6th is my 79th birthday!! All presents can be sent to Santa Claus on my behalf.

[grandevaulter]

I know that I have no business posting in the advanced forum. But here is a drill that I used with my advanced vaulters swinging past vertical. This kid is now competing in NCAA div. 3.
http://youtu.be/mdR0CyWqVjs

Happy Birthday Altius. Your book is a good read. I'm not surprised that your book has been selected as a text for a major university. Keep up the great work !

[PVDaddy]

Happy Birthday Altius!

Just had a 49 Feb 19, the day I got Agenda 21 out. Mom just had her 70 yesterday. Altius are you going to get negatively inverted today? LOL Might be safer to just try to stay positive (got lots to be thankful for). Next year get negative, that's when you clear the high bar!

You know if kids start thinking this negative inversion stuff is cool and dangerous their, gonna want to start doing it right?
Their gonna say that's a big deal and a sign of a great vaulter. Kinda Like hitting a 540 on a skateboard!

Well their gonna have to have one heck of a run up, plant, free take off, penetration, swing and inversion and do it just like Bubka to even get there!

For the first time vaulters might actually get on top off the pole! That's actually a big part of the reason I started this thread. It may just be the biggest advantage to negative inversion! Getting FULLY inverted on top of the pole!

You said: whatever the debate that swirls around this great event, young athletes can begin to look a little like Bubka - my mission in the vaulting component of my life!!

Can't think of a better mission for a coach! Been my mission as a coach from the very beginning, to get kids to try to look like the Pro's. The very thing I have been preaching right along! Had some GREAT success doing it too! I never agreed with the Philosophy of encouraging poor technique just to work with an athletes supposedly, " Lack of athletic abillity" or "style" and rowing and tuck and shooting are prime examples of this just as blocking with the bottom arm.

You said : If anyone wants to know what I believe about the inversion for young athletes let me know and I will post the appropriate chapter

I want to know will you post it please!?

Have an awsome Birthday Altius!

[PVDaddy]

"How can he actually have the confidence to drive up and AWAY FROM the bar, in the certain knowledge that he will finish up safely on the pad? An action that would be incredibly dangerous for someone who for example was gripping too high, or had taken off a long way under, or had picked up the trail leg instead of making a fast long sweep, or done any of the myriad things that can kill pole speed. They would be left with no where to go except into the box. Perhaps that is what Morry was implying.

Is it even possible to get negatively inverted if a vaulter does any of these things?

[PVDaddy]

Grandvaulter, Love the drill! Love the way the kid just rolls it over to the mat! Congrat's on your kids accomplishments in college!

Here's a clip of Bubka performing the same drill to obtain the negative inversion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgYQkQNwSPI

[grandevaulter]

PVD, Thanks for the compliment. I may be wrong but I don't and never have seen the negative quadrants or a tangent line in the swing / bend part of the vault. After reading BTB2 that addresses the swing beyond vertical and the description of events leading up to that . I see two rotations taking place at once, similar to two gears meshing in different directions.(That is why I relate to Alan's book and Roman's paper. I can't chart this with a tangent line ( a mental picture). There are papers written on this that are much more sophisticated than I can describe or understand.

But like I said before, I don't belong in the advanced forum, ( even though I'm a legend in my own mind) the kids that I teach are only beginner and intermediate. I'll just keep reading BTB2. Thanks again.

[PVDaddy]

Grandvaulter said:

I may be wrong but I don't and never have seen the negative quadrants or a tangent line in the swing / bend part of the vault

I am sorry that I confused you with my improper use of the word "tangent" in an earlier post. I mistakenly thought that tangent was another word for vertical. Also what we are discussing here has nothing to do with the swing/bend position (breaking at the his) but simply to do with a position most commonly refereed to as "covering the pole" or "inversion" (when you are upside down prior to fly-away). My point was that if you draw a vertical line along side Bubkas spine (Look at my avatar), the line of his spine is not parallel to the vertical line it is beyond vertical and leans toward the runway.