Run Discussion

[dj]

If I understand the description properly of “step overâ€Â

[ADTF Academy]

The thought I use is piston action mindset during acceleration then progress to step over.


The challenge is making sure they realize that step over does not mean reach.


The other reason I go to step over is becuase much like the piston action the goal is to step over with force and speed. The harder you attempt to step over you must counter it but driving down with the opposite foot in the opposite direction. Equal and opposite. Almost like the free leg block principle.


Like the piston action as soon as you step over you are to tap the foot down so the foot doesn't drift. If your recovery phase is proper and you aggressivly stepping over guess what your down foot drives down into the ground.

For me it is pick your posion would you rather worry about someone reaching or driving to far behind them. Either way your losing power and speed with the foot landing infront of your COM or behind your COM once up to top end speed. During acceleration you want to plant the foot behind your COM so I go with Piston action terminology. Later I switch once they approach top speed.


Both I feel accomplish near the same things just different ways of thinking. Who knows just a lonely coach.

[agapit]

try to do a forward leaning acceleration phase with a 5.20m 220lb pole, and then see how quickly you agree...

There are two things to consider when talking about run position in the vault run-up.

First, changing a structure of the run during the approach is undesirable because it leads to inconsistencies in preparation to the plant and take-off. Some push action in the run is natural, however if you overemphasize the push action you would need a complex training method for transition from push to plant and jump (take-off). Remember that during the push phase of the run up the center of gravity (including the pole weight) is in front of the support. This is a very hard position to begin the plant. I can add some empirical evidence to my analytical analysis. I have seen over the years vaulters trying to overemphasize the push action in the beginning of the run up (similar to the sprinters) and than come out of it (similar to the sprinters at 60m mark on the 100m) right before mid-mark. In every case it led to significant inconsistencies and problems in plant preparation. Limited emphasis on the push action is necessary in the first 4 steps of the approach however the push action should be limited enough to painlessly transfer into upright position during the run. To substitute excessive push action required to gain speed a vaulter should simply increase the length (# of steps) of the run up.

Second, the jump’s (take-off) vertical component is generated (mostly) in front of the center of gravity in the last step. Forces applied from the time the take-off foot touches the ground until the hip passes the support (foot placement) are reflected in the take-off angle. Again, if you are running with emphasizing the push action (mostly behind center of gravity) you would need to employ a complex methods to transfer from the push position to the upright position. The push action is a way to achieve a faster acceleration (essential for sprinters). The jumpers have luxury to simply increase the length of the run up to achieve the same speed by the end of the approach without emphasizing the push action.

Conclusion. The balance must be achieved between some push action in the first steps of the approach; length of the approach and ability consistently transfer into the plant take-off position in the run up.

P.S. I admire energy that is put into vault development in the USA and do not frame the argument based on assumption that one vault tradition or another is superior. I am sure we will see more world records by American vaulters as well as perhaps French and Australian in due time.

[dtrack28]

What I am writing is what The USATF (do you know what that is) coaching staff is teaching.

Maybe it stands for USA Track & Field. And it is the National Governing Body for track and field (oh yes, this includes race walking).

Anyways, my ideas behind the focus on sprinting being with pushing off of the ground and strengthening your legs so that you can apply more force on the ground than everyone else, have also been backed up by some people. Their names are Justin Gatlin and a girl by the name of Allyson Felix. Both of whom are using this philosophy in the weight room focusing on puttin more force into the ground in the verticle direction when they run. Allyson Felix has become one of the fastest women in the world by age 19 and Justin Gatlin is the fastest man in the world (actually before someone much smarter than me like Mr. Academy says "actually his time was changed to 9.77 because of a rounding rule that wasn't enforced the first time they announced his time", I know that already so I'll change my last statement to... Justin Gatlin is one of two men who have ever run the 100 m in 9.77 seconds). Gatlin actually did it in 9.766 seconds. All of my posts were simply what to focus on in the weight room in order to run faster... which is where all of my posts and the original thread came from, remember the bench thread? Well, my week and a half long vacation down in california was nice. Leno, spearfishing, skim boarding.

[ADTF Academy]

Anyways, my ideas behind the focus on sprinting being with pushing off of the ground and strengthening your legs so that you can apply more force on the ground than everyone else, have also been backed up by some people. Their names are Justin Gatlin and a girl by the name of Allyson Felix. Both of whom are using this philosophy in the weight room focusing on puttin more force into the ground in the verticle direction when they run.

Pushing off the ground is not the issue it is the placement of the foot strikes. Your comment of the vertical application of force is just false. Is there a vertical component. YES.

It is not about a vertical application but the combination of the two that shouldn't really be the concern of the athlete.


Ahh well good luck prancing down the runway

[dtrack28]

Your comment of the vertical application of force is just false

A study done by Peter Weyand states "Faster top running speeds are acheived with greater ground forces not more rapid leg movements" which was published in the journal of applied physiology if you want to check that out. What he says is the three parts to running faster are how often you contact the ground, how much muscular force you deliver during ground contact time and how much contact time is available to deliver that force. Further studies showed that the ability to transmit and generate muscular force was the PREDOMINENT factor in running faster.

Everything I've said about verticle force has been known since the 1980's. In 1987 a study published in the Journal of biomechanics says that the horizontal force used during constant speed running is ONE-TENTH the amount of the force applied vertically. Think about it. Without air resistance propulsion forces and braking forces are equal, meaning the amount of force used to propel forward is offset by a braking force when you come into contact with the ground again. So to run you must elevate your body above the ground which can only be done when you must overcome gravity (a force that mostly applies downward force on your body).

ADTF is a strong believer in increasing stride rate to become faster. The two main components of stride rate are swing time and GROUND CONTACT TIME (ADTF's mumbo jumbo about impulse). Will working on this make you faster? Yes, will you see as big of a gain in speed? No. Tests showed that the world's fastest runners in the late 1990's reached a top speed of 11.1 meters per second...here's the kicker, the time it took to reposition his legs was less than three hundreths of a second faster than a sprinter who ran at 6.2 m/s. Thats nearly half the speed of the olympic sprinter. Could the champion sprinter repositioned his feet faster and decreased ground contact time???? Of course, but the gains he would have made would have been minimal compared to the time he could gain in the air by increasing stride length and decreasing contact time (which would require more force put into the ground by the runner).

Of course without proper mechanics none of this will help...overstriding being one of the biggest problems. By overstriding you are increasing your stride length but no longer putting maximum force into the ground, meaning speed will decrease. But mechanics should not be the athletes main focus. Like focusing on running with high knees. Speed isn't a production of high knees, high knees are a production of speed. Increasing ground force causes a rebound effect that forces your knees to raise in elevation (Newton's 3rd law assumes this). Put more force into the ground and your knees will naturally go higher. And why spend time correcting bad form? While some of it is warranted it shouldn't be the focus of an athlete/coach. Michael johnson had his own style of running, not bad form. His stride length was one of the longest of all elite sprinters because of the enormous amount of force he was able to apply to the ground.

I hope this post was helpful to those who are interested in what I say.

[stavhoppare]

This response is not met to be confrontational, simply informational. To simply describe what one thinks is going on in human movement is really not a great service to the field of Biomechanics. Biomechanics is the key here. Physics does not change. Athletes might look different, however if they are to be exceptional, they must perform movement efficiently and correclty.

One of the greatest sprint technicians the world has known is Tom Tellez. (Coach of Carl Lewis, Leroy Burrell, Joe DeLoach, Mike Marsh, and many other international stars). Tom has also trained some great vaulters. Tom is a biomechanist. Here are, in simple laymens terms, the essence of sprinting fast as presented by Tom Tellez at the USTCCCA symposium in Orlando this past winter:

The human body is much more efficient pushing rather than pulling. The Quadriceps (thighs) are the leg extensors. The gluteous muscles (butt) are the hip extensors. You must use the most powerful muscle groups to push down the track. Those who want to paw or claw the ground are mechanically incorrect. Sprinting is a pushing movement, not a pulling movement. The action of placing the base of support (foot) in front of the center of mass is a great example of "putting on the brakes". It is mechanically wrong and inefficient. The action of the sprint leg for power is to have the ball of the foot strike the ground directly under the hip joint with ALL power going straight down! Although some speak about down and back, the power must be directed straight down as the c of g moves forward with the EXTENSION of the leg and hip joints.

Having studied biomechanics of the PV for many decades(MS in Biomech from UCLA) I have a great passion for this sport.

The concept of clawing is WRONG biomechanically. And please do study Bubka, Gibilisco,Isinbajeva,Tarassov et.al. Stop action and look at base of support, c of g and action of hip and leg extensors. You might also take a look at Carl Lewis sprinting and LJ, or Jesse Owens or Valery Borzov or......??? Be very careful about what you look at. At one of my meetings with a great Soviet PV coach, I asked him to show and prove what he was talking about regarding the run and takeoff. I told him I would believe it if I could see it. His remark was: "That is your problem, you must believe and then you will see".....My response: That is VooDoo pole vaulting. Never, ever ask your athlete to do something that you can not prove, biomechanically is correct.

[vault3rb0y]

I hope this post was helpful to those who are interested in what I say.

This is very very helpful to me. My coach is a great sprint coach, but he doesnt explain the physics of running to me to help me get a higher top speed. He would just say "get your knees higher and you will run faster". I now see that this was making me faster because it gives my legs more time to accelerate before applying the force into and back to the ground. My start was always great because i had fast turn over, but at about 60 meters my top speed levels off dramatically. I now see that the best way to run fast is to spend the optimal time with your feet on the ground, close to none. I get what you say about "bounders" being bad for trying to reach top speed, because you reach too far to put the most force behind you. From now on, i am going to focus on throwing the runway back and getting up and well as out when i run. Thank you very much, i read this post yesterday and thought about it before a meet yesterday, and dropped from 11.66 to 11.50 in the 100, mainly for thinking about the physics. Very informative post and i look forward to any other pointers you may have about reaching a higher Meters/second down the runway. (by the way, is there any way i can calculate this without using a radar gun? thanks)
-Jason Pelletier

[ADTF Academy]

ADTF is a strong believer in increasing stride rate to become faster. The two main components of stride rate are swing time and GROUND CONTACT TIME (ADTF's mumbo jumbo about impulse). Will working on this make you faster? Yes, will you see as big of a gain in speed? No.

This is in no way what I am trying to say. Please do not put words into my mouth. I never said increase your frequency. Increasing and focusing on only one part of the equation will not increase you speed. It is the combination of the two. (stride length and frequency)

Your vertical force is the upper portion of the force parrallelogram that is created when you push off the ground.

An impulse is the amount of force you apply over a given period of time.


All I am saying is once up to top end speed if you can reduce your time spent on the ground (ground contact time) you will be able to produce a greater impulse with less actual vertical driving (as dtrack is talking about). This is all I am saying.


During acceleration I agree 100% in regards to needed to apply as much force as possible into the ground to overcome inertia.



Dtrack I am done you win. Please don't put words into my mouth I never said increase your stride frequency. BLAH BLAH BLAH.

[ADTF Academy]

The human body is much more efficient pushing rather than pulling. The Quadriceps (thighs) are the leg extensors. The gluteous muscles (butt) are the hip extensors. You must use the most powerful muscle groups to push down the track. Those who want to paw or claw the ground are mechanically incorrect. Sprinting is a pushing movement, not a pulling movement. The action of placing the base of support (foot) in front of the center of mass is a great example of "putting on the brakes".

People I for one am not talking about pulling action. In no point in time am I for one talking about a raking action whereby you plant the foot out in front of you COM and pull through.


The pawing or clawing action I am referring to is with a flexed shin toe up pawing of the foot down and under you so that it makes contact with the ground directly under you on the ball of your foot and then pushes off behind you. The foot should not drift in front of the knee during the recovery phase.

The object of this is to set yourself up to once again decrease the amount of time your on the ground. Less time spent on the ground when at top end the faster the potential speeds you can acheive.


ALL WELL!!!!! do what you must to get your vaulters faster thats all that matters. I am sure you do an amazing job.

[vault3rb0y]

This is in no way what I am trying to say. Please do not put words into my mouth. I never said increase your frequency. Increasing and focusing on only one part of the equation will not increase you speed. It is the combination of the two. (stride length and frequency)

Your vertical force is the upper portion of the force parrallelogram that is created when you push off the ground.

An impulse is the amount of force you apply over a given period of time.


All I am saying is once up to top end speed if you can reduce your time spent on the ground (ground contact time) you will be able to produce a greater impulse with less actual vertical driving (as dtrack is talking about). This is all I am saying.


During acceleration I agree 100% in regards to needed to apply as much force as possible into the ground to overcome inertia.



Dtrack I am done you win. Please don't put words into my mouth I never said increase your stride frequency. BLAH BLAH BLAH.

guys, just agree that getting faster means making all the muscles from your core to your toes work stronger and quicker. Ive seen all types of running, and there are many different ways to get fast. If someone cant get a fast stride they compensate a different way. Its stupid to fight over very picky differences in running when everyone can run in different ways.

[dtrack28]

Low force x less ground contact time = greater impulse.

the guy that is running faster is spending less time on the ground than the slower kid. Same overall tempo but way different impulse created.

Focus on running mechanics and doing anything in your power to have a solid cyclical action of your legs and decrease your ground contact time

No one is putting words in your mouth ADTF. They are your very own. Almost everything you've said disagrees with what I've been saying. The equation, the focus, everything.

All I am saying is once up to top end speed if you can reduce your time spent on the ground (ground contact time) you will be able to produce a greater impulse with less actual vertical driving (as dtrack is talking about). This is all I am saying

The whole point of focusing on pushing upward is to fight against the force of gravity, the major force applied against your body when you run in any event. So when you are at top speed is their no longer any gravity being applied to your body? I'll ask a question so I don't put words in your mouth. You are correct when at top speed you will not be putting the same amount of force into the ground as you were during acceleration, but guess who's gonna win the race? The guy who puts the MOST force into the ground once top speed is reached while maintaing minimal ground contact time. If your goal is to put less force into the ground while at top speed (as your equation indicates) you WILL decelerate no matter what the ground contact time does.