Trail Leg- Tuck or Petrov?

[spike gibeault]

Bubka broke his trail leg once inverted, if that's what you're talking about. But not puting energy into the pole as much as possible makes absolutely no sense at all. It's like a double jump in a video game! Puting as much energy as possible into the vault means that the pole will bend back harder/faster and with the vaulter potentially in a much better position than otherwise. Bending the trail leg allows for the pole to unbend without bending as much as would be desirable. You could get into the same position by bending the trail leg as you could keeping it straight. It's just the fact that more energy is loaded into the pole during the swing if the trail leg is kept straight.

if the pole is recoiling the energy back to you, trying to force more energy into it would make your jump less efficient, it would be stopping your vertical movement, i agree that swinging with a straight trail leg loads energy into the pole, but after the pole is starting to unbend it is wasteful

[powerplant42]

Once the pole starts to unbend, no longer should the object be to 'load' the pole, I agree. It should be to add energy to the system via shifting the hips upward. But while the pole hasn't reached the point where it has begun to unbend, as much energy as possible should be put into it, through bending AND rotating.

[BethelPV]

I have been reading this post and not wanting to jump into the argument... but here goes because I can't take it any longer...

Spike, if you swing all the way around with a straight leg as you are supposed to and it comes from an efficient takeoff and chest drive into the pole... the pole should never start trying to unbend before you get to it. In all honesty, if you swing fast enough and powerful enough all the way to the pole with a straight leg, you are adding soo much energy to the system that pole will not be ready to start unbending... so your argument is nullified by the simple fact that if enough energy is applied, the pole wont begin to unbend until you are lined up with it. Watch Bubka's world record jumps on youtube... you'll see what im talking about.

Secondly, if you bend your trail leg, you stop applying energy and tension into the pole. This causes the pole to release the stored energy that is in it, or in other words unbend. Now your screwed, because you aren't lined with the pole and it is already unbending, and i guarantee it is physically impossible to bring in your legs and then shoot them up the pole quick enough to line up with it before it starts unbending. By doing this you are leaking soo much energy that you will never recieve the full potential of energy the pole could have given because it has already unbent quite a bit before you could even get in line with it.

Your arguments for trying to find another way to jump do not make sense and are not supported by any science at all... Some of the stuff you describe to do in all honesty is not possible to do. If you don't want to follow the petrov model, then don't, but i would be willing to bet you wont reach your full potential... but don't come on this board and continually argue against the model when it has scientific backing as to why it is the best way to jump at the present time!

[spike gibeault]

but don't come on this board and continually argue against the model when it has scientific backing as to why it is the best way to jump at the present time!

i am not saying petrov's model is bad, it is a great method but I feel that it can be improved on and be made more efficient. I am not telling you to agree with me, and i am not trying to argue that this is defiantly better than petrov's because i am no scientist, but people spend to much time pointing out the good in it and not looking for flaws, or possible better methods. This is just my theory of the vault, and i am happy the way it is working for me. everybody has their own style and methods and different views, i am not trying to set a world record, nor am i trying to say im better than bubka, i am trying to have a great time and try new things, i have read many posts by Altius and Agapit and i feel they have some great views on the vault and they are great coaches and i have much respect for them and all other coaches on here but where was it written that everybody has to jump like bubka did? i first posted on this topic because i wanted to know what other peoples views on the advantage of a straight trail leg throughout the entire vault, i was not looking to say a bent trail leg was better or to try and change my style, i was just curious to other peoples views on the vault. I have received many mixed answers, some were not what i was looking for but others were great, thanks you all for your responses

-spike

also

and i guarantee it is physically impossible to bring in your legs and then shoot them up the pole quick enough to line up with it before it starts unbending.

i never said to do it instantly in the split second of the pole starting to unbend, i said to do it with the unbending of a pole.

i think of it as standing on a catapult ready to launch, would you go further if you stand up and let it throw you, or if you jump with it as it launches you?

[BethelPV]

And by doing that you are losing all the energy... because in order to catch all the energy from the pole, you need to be in line with the pole and moving with the pole, instead of trying to catch up to the unbending action!

Good luck on your search of a better method of pole vaulting... im fairly confident in saying that you wont find one... and until you figure out that the petrov model is the best way for anyone to go... you'll never jump as high as you can either...

[spike gibeault]

And by doing that you are losing all the energy... because in order to catch all the energy from the pole, you need to be in line with the pole and moving with the pole, instead of trying to catch up to the unbending action!

if you are already vertical, you are caught up to the pole, you can have your body up against it and be in line with it and moving with it and still kick up the pole it will just add a little more energy if you do it dosent look like walker is trying to catch up to the polehttp://www.stabhoch.com/movies/20060719_Walker_600.mov

[BethelPV]

Even in that video... as great of a jump that is... Walker has to work as hard as he can to catch up to the pole when it begins unbending... because he is in a tucked ball when the pole begins unbending...

Now imagine how much more thrust he would have had if he had swung all the way to the pole. That position he is in after he kicks his legs, he would have been there before the pole would have ever started unbending... and if that was the case i would have loved to see the height he would have put over that 6m bar...

[powerplant42]

Yes, in the late part of the 'Einrollen' phase. You can almost just sort of tell that he's losing some energy. What this is, is a PASSIVE PHASE. (blech) If he had eliminated the periods where he 'waits' for the pole to unload, then he would jump much higher. I completely agree with bethelpv on this one.

[vault3rb0y]

This is physics so im not sure exactly how you are argueing on a better way to vault, its like saying 2+2 does not equal 4. The whole goal of the vault would be to vault high. You do this by getting on the biggest pole you can and transfering your horizontal energy and centripital energy of your swing into the pole with as little leakage as possible. The longer you can keep the pole bent by adding your energy, the deeper you will get into the pit, thus being able to get on a stiffer/longer pole. By breaking your trail leg, you are effectively breaking that energy transfer. Even if you are now timing your jump perfectly on your pole, you will not go as high as if you kept your trail leg straight and got on a bigger pole. Although you feel like you add more energy by swinging and then waiting for the release of the pole, you are not. You need to get your head around the fact that if you slow down the energy transfer at any point during the vault, for any reason, that you are sacrificing the opportunity to get on a bigger pole and jump higher.


Having said that, i believe there is SOME warrant for a legitimate way of vaulting if you do not have physical capabilities to execute the petrov model. Im not entirely convinced either way because i haven't seen and experimented in the exact physics myself, just as you have not, and should not, be convinced there is a better way of vaulting until you major in biomechanics and study it for years and years. Check out the Oklahoma Pole Vault Manifesto to see what im talking about. But the petrov model was designed for tall, high take off jumpers just like in the stiff pole era. Someone who is shorter and cannot jump off the ground as well might use there gymnastic ability to swing harder on a shorter and stiffer pole and push 46" inches. Thats the basic arguement against using aspects of the petrov model that i have seen, and it is presented by someone with years and years of vaulting experience, and is not a way to break a world record. It is simply a way to vault high using your own personal abilities if you are not able to jump at a high angle off the ground but you can hit an amazing C and swing like a mad man, you can still be a 19' jumper (joe dial). I wont comment on whether he could have gone higher if he used the petrov model (although i know altius has) because i dont know for sure. You should do likewise.


In thinking you are correct, that you should always question what you hear and think for yourself. You shouldnt just accept the petrov model! You are RIGHT! You should take a biomechanics class and prove to yourself that it is the best way to jump, or not the best way. Or buy all the books and publications on the correct way to vault and understand the physics yourself. Thinking outside the box is great, but i would suggest that you start to understand and accept the scientific facts of vaulting before venturing into possible ways to exploit more energy than you can with the petrov model.

[rwelch]

Why is everyone arguing with a teen who is vaulting 13'? I am sorry to offend you, spike, but I just don't understand why you would think that any of your points are valid. Personal experience? Exactly how much of that do you have? Compared with the last 30 years of experience of the VAULTING WORLD that is being conveyed on your board?

I am not saying that you cannot have your own ideas and can't want to have new radical thoughts; innovation is fantastic. However, your arguement seems to disregard all previous research.

The russian scientists invested years using mathematics, physics, trig, etc to help progress the vault to the point it is now. Have you?

Like I said, innovation is awesome, but just having an idea and then trying to argue people into accepting your ideas, OR, tell someone else their idea is wrong just seems immature and, frankly, rude. Some humility might suit you better.

Once again, sorry if this offends anyone.

[spike gibeault]

Why is everyone arguing with a teen who is vaulting 13'? I am sorry to offend you, spike, but I just don't understand why you would think that any of your points are valid. Personal experience? Exactly how much of that do you have? Compared with the last 30 years of experience of the VAULTING WORLD that is being conveyed on your board?

I am not saying that you cannot have your own ideas and can't want to have new radical thoughts; innovation is fantastic. However, your arguement seems to disregard all previous research.

The russian scientists invested years using mathematics, physics, trig, etc to help progress the vault to the point it is now. Have you?

Like I said, innovation is awesome, but just having an idea and then trying to argue people into accepting your ideas, OR, tell someone else their idea is wrong just seems immature and, frankly, rude. Some humility might suit you better.

Once again, sorry if this offends anyone.

i was in no way basing any of this on my personal experience, this is how multiple coaches have taught me and explained the model to me, this is what i have seen in 6m jumpers, this is how i have been coached, i was not trying to convince the world that this is perfect or to accept it, i was not trying to tell anyone to jump like this, all i did was say what i have been told by nearly every coach i talked to, i stated that i think bubkas model can be improved on, i did not start this thread, so clearly i was not the only person who has been taught this way, i did not want to offend anyone, i was simply going along with the topic of this thread

and this is in no way immature or rude, both methods work well, both methods are taught, many people feel a straight trail leg throughout the vault is better and many people feel that tucking the trail leg is better, i said what i have been taught and believe, and other people have done the same, i am not making anything up, i have just said what i have heard

this post has been dead for a while now, we have agreed that you can still execute the petrov model with a bent trail leg, it is just your style that overlaps it, i have agreed with this, and i am not disagreeing with anything in the petrov model.

you should read the entire topic before you post like that. no one is arguing anymore, and you have accused me of several things that are not true. Please, let this post end, do not try to start another argument.

[sooch90]

so, here's a question I've thought about.

When you shorten the axis of rotation (curl in your legs), according to angular kinematics, this increases your angular velocity doesn't it? So won't this help you move your body in to the correct positions even faster?

Like how a skater, when executing her spins (not sure what they're called) or a gymnist doing a backflip. They pull in their arms/legs in order to increase their speed.

I'm not necessarily arguing for any side, I'm just asking for people's thoughts on this.