What does the bottom arm do????

[gypsy]

ban me if you want

you have a slightly insane person talking to me so what is gained by that

if alan cant engage in a disucssion on pole vault then i just figure he isnt capable. It is only one small question.

he should read the talmud - his quote from it is pure hypocrisy

bye ...

[tsorenson]

Gypsy,
Your opinion on the bottom arm that you posted a few weeks ago, asking for agreement/disagreement, was nothing new. Many others have already stated exactly the same thing that you said, while others have argued against it and the debate has become totally polarized and never seems to go anywhere. So when you didn't get any responses, you should know that this whole topic has been debated for years on this website, and everyone is pretty tired of it. You aren't likely to elicit much of a discussion when you state old news, and then assert that nobody knows what they are talking about.

If you have something new to add, then please do so. Then I will comment on whether I agree with your thoughts. Otherwise, you can just read my previous comments on this topic, as my opinions have not changed.

Altius is quick to call people out, for better or worse. But you bashing BTB is pretty lame, considering that it is the best book ever written about the vault, as stated by Agapit himself. Petrov thanked Altius at his Reno speech for helping spread his ideas about the vault. I personally learned a lot from the book, the DVD, communicating with Altius, and his contributions to this forum. When you have a compilation of your own original ideas about anything, I'd be interested to read it. Until then, ?

Let's get PVP back to constructive discussion and less with the negative comments and BS. Otherwise it will be as worthless as most discussions on the internet; just senseless argumentative blabber. It's a shame it's getting to that point.

Cheers,
Tom

[vaultman18]

Ok gypsy I started this thread a while back to see what people thought the bottom arm is supposed to do. I really wanted to see what people thought and why. As in why does it push? Or why does it do nothing? I have let this thread run its course and as many threads on the site do it has turned sour. I have debated and stated my position many times on the site.
But I will do it again for your benefit.

The bottom arm PULLS...immediately after take off or at least it should. And the reason is simple, doing anything else is passive and delays the inversion. Does this mean if you take off 10 inches under you should pull immediately??? I don't know but pulling would be the least of your problems. What I and others have struggled with on this concept is how to train "immediate pull". It is not so simple that all you have to do is tell your athlete to pull, although I am sure it has been done by some coaches . I once heard a coach at a meet tell his athlete "all you have to do is a free take off" and the athlete said "what's that?". As we know or should know coaching is not simply telling an athlete to do something on meet day or even at practice. It is developing training methods that have athletes repeat desired movements until those movements can be preformed properly. Training for "immediate pull" is what seems to be lost on almost everyone, including me for a while. But as I have worked with Agapit and watched him coach it has become much more clear to me. As for training what happens after take off many reps of stiff pole vaulting for height from short runs is necessary as well as rope inversions as these mimic the closest. Now in my view it is what happens during the run, plant and the take off that are the key to being able to pull immediately after the take off toe leaves the ground. Proper timing and plant position are factors as to what happens off the ground. Other factors are take off angle ie: being flat at take off have negative consequences off the ground and delay the inversion as will taking off under. If nothing else as a coach even if don't teach/train immediate pull, NEVER instruct a vaulter to push the pole ever. Up, out forward or any other kind of push will cause problems eventually.

Now Gypsy explain what you think the bottom arm does and why.

[rainbowgirl28]

Gypsy is taking a one week vacation from the site... he can come back if he can engage in constructive conversation. If the attacks return we'll make it a permanent ban.

[master]

Hey Gypsy, most people that make thoughtful posts on this site do so because they are very involved and dedicated to the sport of pole vaulting. Most of use have been reading and participating for years. Although we have nicknames, we know each other personally and that goes a long way to having a thoughtful, respectful conversation. Perhaps if and when you come back you would introduce yourself to us. Help us get to know you. I guess that is another way of asking you who you are? Have you vaulted (not an absolute requirement to be knowledgeable in the sport)? Do you coach? Where? What style of vaulting do you endorse/coach?

I will reiterate what a few others have already said. When a topic has been debated for dozens of pages it is hard to feel obligated to answer the same question again and again every time a new person joins the site. I think it is common web courtesy to read previous presentations before expecting people to spend their limited time restating their opinions. When a new person reads the topics he/she is interested in (and in doing learns about the people that write) and then asks for help understanding what the posters have already said (here using a quote is very helpful) that new person has been very well received and in general gets most of their questions answered.

Give it a try!

(Not that I expect you to be interested in my background, but if you are, a place to start is the link beside my nickname. And lest you think me rather vain because of my nickname, it is in reference to my age, not my ability. )

[vaultman18]

i think i need more advanced pole vaulting people to talk to

Gypsy now that you are banned from the forum I reckon you can seek the true great minds of PV.

I am not sure what your problem is with Alan (jealousy I suppose) but you can leave it out of this thread (my thread). We don't know who you are and I assume never will which is why no one takes you seriously. You have provided zero information on the subject of the bottom arm or pole vault in general. Alan on the other hand has done more for pole vaulting than the rest of us combined. When you get an original accurate thought on the subject of the pole vault let me know. Better yet write a book (on your own dime) travel around the world (on your own dime) and teach young athletes proper technique and then come back and let us know how it went. Every single pole vault coach on this planet should own BTB2 and every vaulter should at least own the DVD.

Enjoy your break.

[dj]

Petrov wrote.........

Recommendations for the take-off phase:

1. Begin the pole acceleration for the “push” already from the swinging leg

2. Before the take-off leg contacts the ground the vaulter needs to create a maximum space between him and the pole. His arms must be stretched, the right/top arm continues the line of his body, whereas the left/bottom arm is at right angle the pole axis.

3. Before the vertical position, the vaulter tries to increase this space to the maximum, whereas ever since, and during the whole movement from the take-off he must aim to “rush” as deep upward as possible, trying to reach the left elbow with his head.
4. The foot is placed for the take-off firmly with a quick roll-up on the ball of the foot. The vaulter must pay more attention to the swing with the right (left) leg bent to a maximum in order to move the hips forward, trying to keep the shoulders in the front position, until the end of the hang.

dj

[KYLE ELLIS]

Petrov wrote.........

Recommendations for the take-off phase:

1. Begin the pole acceleration for the “push” already from the swinging leg

2. Before the take-off leg contacts the ground the vaulter needs to create a maximum space between him and the pole. His arms must be stretched, the right/top arm continues the line of his body, whereas the left/bottom arm is at right angle the pole axis.

3. Before the vertical position, the vaulter tries to increase this space to the maximum, whereas ever since, and during the whole movement from the take-off he must aim to “rush” as deep upward as possible, trying to reach the left elbow with his head.
4. The foot is placed for the take-off firmly with a quick roll-up on the ball of the foot. The vaulter must pay more attention to the swing with the right (left) leg bent to a maximum in order to move the hips forward, trying to keep the shoulders in the front position, until the end of the hang.

dj

DJ I beleive what you highlighted is referring to the takeoff and being elastic, and is before the swing starts. Here is what Petrov states about the swing. "It is worth mentioning here that the arrest of the shoulders after the deep penetration ensures the drive of the hips upwards to the pole, through active unbending of the left arm, whereas the acceleration of the vaulter’s hips drive upwards was built up by the turn of the shoulders back and down."



I have a lot to say about this since I have played around with the 6.40 model, and almost the exact opposite of the left arm pull which I always find Petrov advocating. I told myself I wouldn't post on this topic anymore but I can't help it. I think the biggest misconception is people climbing inside the box of it's either a pull or push against the pole. Pushing against the pole, pushing down the pole, and making space from the pole are all three very different actions to me.
I hope that we can all agree that there is a pull, I hope the debate is when the pull actually occurs. I don't believe Bubka pulled right after takeoff nor did Tarasov, Hooker, Lavallenie or any other 6m vaulter. Since it's a complicated action I am just going to call it "swinging long". But I am surprised that nobody talks about the advantages of swinging long. I think swinging long when done right causes a natural reaction to pull and to pull at the right time.

Here is a question I pose -when you do a power clean do pull vigorously from the floor or do you not have to wait til the bar passes your knees to make the explosive pull? Same thing on swinging off the end of a rope or vine, would you start pulling from the very beginning or do you not wait until the end so you can explosively swing off the end? Until your hips are in a position to be moved upward I don’t see an advantage in pulling down? I think you can load a stiffer pole, get your hips above your head faster, and move the pole more by swinging long, and when the pole is bent to a maximum the hips should be in a position to take advantage of a vigorous pull.
I would describe the swinging action as pushing your bottom hand away from your shoulders, which involves a little bit of pushing down the pole, a little bit of pushing up and forward, but most importantly by pushing down and against the pole your are accelerating you shoulders down and hips up like it says in Petrov’s article.

[tsorenson]

Kyle,
Glad to see you back in the fray, and getting us back to constructive discussion.

To me, the initiation of the swing occurs with a simultaneous kick-whip of the trail leg (which should be bent slightly due to a proper takeoff), timed with a dynamic re-engagement of the shoulder girdle. This motion results in the fast, long swing to which you are referring, which almost instantaneously gets the hips moving upward through the chord. Once through the chord, the bottom arm pull (perpindicular to the pole) should be in full effect to accelerate the hips upward as fast as possible; any pushing or rowing at this point will only have a negative effect. So do you wait to start pulling until you are past the chord, or is it too late once you have gotten to that point?

Agapit and others argue that if you consciously hold any passive position on the pole, you are delaying the inversion, and that in order to have the pull occur in time you should basically be trying to pull immediately after finishing the takeoff (which includes the so-called "drive" or "hang" phase built into the takeoff, but with no conscious effort to stay down).

I have come to understand that his 6.40 model relies heavily on the fact that your and your plant must be up and timed properly with a free takeoff. That is the real problem with getting people to implement it, because most vaulters are either under, or late, or both. Also, most people don't seem to understand that Agapit's model ONLY trains to use active phases, meaning the only mental cues are those that accelerate the swing, never any passive phases (although those may clearly be present in any vault, even after years of attempting to eliminate them).

Bubka has made reference to "growing" up through the takeoff, which to me sounds the same as re-engaging the shoulders, pushing up with the hands, making space, etc. So should this push be included as part of the takeoff? If it is not a part of someone's takeoff, than they probably are not ready to train for the immediate pull, in my opinion.

Perhaps Agapit or others who have worked with him can confirm if the engagement of the long swing is included in the 6.40 model as part of the takeoff, or if it is understood that this motion will happen instinctively as the result of a proper takeoff. This seems to be where a lot of the confusion comes in.

Cheers,
Tom

[tsorenson]

In respect to a good friend of mine, who has taught me a lot about the vault, I thought I should add something here.

I am not someone who claims that the bottom arm does "nothing," but I do feel that de-emphasizing it is a good idea for beginners/intermediates so that they don't block, and I gradually try to add a little more extension as they get their step out and their grip up. My very knowledgeable friend is adamant that a big bottom arm can be used, and that it can be very beneficial, provided that the vaulter is relaxed in the shoulders but rigid in the elbows, and that the force is directed up over the head. This theory is supported by some of Bubka's later vaults, and also of recent vaults by Lazaro Borges, Lavillenie, and others. Even Petrov is pretty explicit about the bottom arm being fully straight at the plant, perpindicular to the pole, in both his Reno speech and the quote re-posted by DJ.

So what I am trying to say is that all this talk about pulling doesn't necessarily mean that there is no push. For me it's mostly an argument of how to best teach the vault. In my experience, almost every young vaulter who gets a lot of emphasis on pushing the bottom arm ends up blocking out in front, often turning the shoulders out of square to get a bigger push, overbending poles, losing the hips, and missing the natural swing. If you can somehow get the best of both worlds, then you are really psyched. Borges seems to be doing this.

Tom

[dj]

K and T

A couple of points to support your description….

1. A long swing.. but a fast swing.. swinging fast with as long of a "radius" creates more force and moves that "high grip"/long radius to vertical…
Bubka's jumps took less time.. 1.45 seconds from toe leaving the runway to max height than Tully, 1.49/1.50 and that was with a 10cm higher grip…
In 1987/88 Tully focused on this (faster swing but extended as possible) along with a high "out" plant and "covering the arch of the pole"… Tim Mack had great swing speed which allowed him to grip 5 meters with a little less runway velocity than some vaulters gripping the same.

2. If you focus on the bottom hand "grip" in Bubka's jumps you can see, what appears to me as slight pressure.. just at takeoff on the "ball" of the hand… frame by frame will give you an indication (by watching the fingers) when the "pressure up changes to a "pull"…

Physics will dictate action/reaction… an "out" or closer to "free takeoff" will create less "pressure" and a faster transition to "pull" than a "under" takeoff. It is impossible, in my opinion, to Not push if you are under..

Run-Plant-Swing

Run and plant correctly.. and the swing should be intuitive..

If you "stay down" to long you will have to "tuck" to rotate fast enough to catch up …. if you want to finish the vault..

If you go to quick (or get sucked under) without a "finished" plant/takeoff.. you may not have the "pole speed" to finish or will at best have to adjust during the top half of the vault..

dj

[altius]

""It is worth mentioning here that the arrest of the shoulders after the deep penetration ensures the drive of the hips upwards to the pole, through active unbending of the left arm, whereas the acceleration of the vaulter’s hips drive upwards was built up by the turn of the shoulders back and down.""

This is the quote upon which I HAD always based my interpretation of Petrovian biomechanics for this phase of the vault - and to my knowledge neither he nor Bubka EVER mentioned pulling with the left arm. However after discussions with Roman over a two week period in France three years ago I began to believe that we can deceived by what can best be termed an optical illusion. Because the left hand - after being driven back over the head - now APPEARS to be pushing the pole up and forward until - as Petrov suggests the 'arrest of the shoulders ensures the drive of the hips upward to the pole" - the simple biomechanical principle I alluded to in my earlier post on this topic. Perhaps even the great man did not quite understand what was going on here - difficult to believe but????? However I worked alongside Alex Parnov for two years and spent many hours discussing technique - and he never mentioned pulling in this phase.

However after our time in france - and I wish someone could find my post on this topic from two years ago because I cant - I began to consider how my own athletes -at least those on the dvd - did manage to invert satisfactorily - without me ever introducing the notion of the pull? I could only conclude that it was because they had done an immense number of stiff pole jumps in training and since I had already decided from a theoretical perspective that jumping on a flexible pole was like jumping on an infinite series of straight poles -they had taught themselves to pull!!

I then linked this to the notion that after take off the vaulter is responding intuitively - non consciously - to all of the previous inputs and simply does what feels right at that instant based on their previous training - on a stiff pole? The Bubka AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA response to Romans question about what he thought about after take off would appear to confirm this.

I have come to believe that it is pointless trying to 'coach' athletes to do this by trying to provide cues -I believe that they can only teach themselves - and this by the volume of repetitive stiff pole jumping that Bubka continued to include in his training long after he set his first world record. However I have asked/challenged Roman to detail the drills - if any - he uses/used because that may help move things forward quicker.

My final comment is that all of this depends on the very precise positioning of the left hand and arm at the instant the pole hits the box.

Not sure if this clarifies anything or muddies the water further -but it is the best I can offer.