Pole Charts - Part 2

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KirkB
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Re: Pole Charts - Part 2

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:18 pm

I found this 2004 post by Jan Johnson here: http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3571&p=29766&hilit=astm#p29766
~jj~ wrote: ... Ya don't have to be a mover or a shaker to attend. It currently appears that helmets and standardized flex systems will be the hot topics. I think Rainbow should do a feature story on her first trip to ASTM. ...

... but I didn't find any followup trip report by RainbowGirl on PVP. So if "standardized flex systems" was one of the 2 hot topics, then what was discussed in this meeting that was OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, Becca?

Did the whole idea of a "standardized flex system" ergo a "standardized pole weight system" get quashed at that meeting?

Come on, Becca, please give us the nitty-gritty! :yes:

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Re: Pole Charts - Part 2

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:35 pm

There have been in-depth discussions at ASTM and other meetings about standardizing the flex chart. Jan did quite a bit of research to determine if there was a problem. He ordered the same length and weight rating of a few different size poles from all 4 of the US manufacturers, and they were all similar.

So after much discussion, I think everyone agreed that the poles being manufactured today were safe and consistent among brands. There are some variances, but it's not a safety issue. There haven't been any catastrophic injuries due to a vaulter grabbing a pole of a different brand and finding it way too soft or stiff.

There is a de facto standard in place. Yes, there is no rule in place to stop a manufacturer from changing all of their weight ratings drastically. But because there is a de facto standard in place, they would face liability issues if someone were to be injured. They would probably also not sell very many poles, and thanks to the internet, everyone would know quickly that the poles were off, it's not like they could get listed in M-F or something.


We also had lengthy discussions about what it would take to recertify all of the poles in the country. Because that is what would happen if a standard were established and adopted by the NFHS. Anyway, at one point, Jan had a plan for how this pole recertification could take place. But the bottom line is that pole flexing apparatus is very finicky. It is very hard to get two systems to calibrate perfectly with each other. The US is also very big, and poles are very expensive to ship. So you would need to have hundreds of testing apparatus built and transported all over the US to give everyone an equal opportunity, oh yeah and someone with reallllly deep pockets to pay for it, because most schools don't have the money to spend even a couple bucks per pole to recertify all of their poles.

The other issue is that fact that the flex number does not tell you everything about the relative stiffness or safety of a pole. A crossbar can have a flex number, and little kids can vault safely on a section of crossbar if they are not bending it much, but no manufacturer is marketing short crossbars as poles. So you could have two poles by two manufacturers that are the same flex number, but because of how they place the sail pieces, they could have quite a bit of difference in resistance to the same vaulter vaulting with them.


The bottom line is that the majority of poles out there of a given length and weight rating correspond to a similar relative stiffness. It's not a perfect system, but it's not a safety issue at this point either. I think if all the manufacturers were out of whack with each other, there would be more push to standardize it. But the reality is that even though it doesn't make perfect sense, it's working, and there is no feasible way to fix the problem. The NFHS has decided that each manufacturer is the best one to decide what weight of vaulter is best suited to use a given pole.

Barto was the one who locked the thread as he is a moderator in this forum, but I doubt any manufacturer asked him to. Nor did anyone ask me to. The only thing I removed from the thread was a manufacturer's flex chart which is top secret information that had been shared with a dealer who inappropriately shared it with an athlete.


I honestly thought more on this issue had been discussed on the board, but maybe most of the discussions I had were with Jan and ASTM people. I'll try to search the old threads sometime. You're off base searching for BestFlex, this has little to do with that. BestFlex is just what Gill calls their flex system.

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Re: Pole Charts - Part 2

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:54 am

RG, thank you for your thoughtful, informative, and thorough reply. It's all beginning to make sense to me now. In a convoluted but weird sorta way, the sport and the PV mfg industry have chosen to self-regulate, rather than have the ATSM and/or NFHS regulate IN DETAIL for them.

No one's admitting it, but it can't be pure coincidence that the Big 4 "just happen to have" simliar weight-rated poles. Perhaps they've joined forces on this issue behind closed doors for the betterment of the sport (and their industry), and there's nothing wrong with that, as long as it benefits the athletes. And in this situation, that certainly appears to be the case.

I think I've exhausted all my questions about how this all works. [sigh]

But you never know ... I might have a few followups! :)

But for now, I'm satisfied with the current explanations of how this all works. :yes:

Kirk
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Re: Pole Charts - Part 2

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:14 am

KirkB wrote:RG, thank you for your thoughtful, informative, and thorough reply. It's all beginning to make sense to me now. In a convoluted but weird sorta way, the sport and the PV mfg industry have chosen to self-regulate, rather than have the ATSM and/or NFHS regulate IN DETAIL for them.

No one's admitting it, but it can't be pure coincidence that the Big 4 "just happen to have" simliar weight-rated poles. Perhaps they've joined forces on this issue behind closed doors for the betterment of the sport (and their industry), and there's nothing wrong with that, as long as it benefits the athletes. And in this situation, that certainly appears to be the case.

I think I've exhausted all my questions about how this all works. [sigh]

But you never know ... I might have a few followups! :)

But for now, I'm satisfied with the current explanations of how this all works. :yes:

Kirk


There's no conspiracy and they're definitely not meeting behind closed doors... but you have to remember that UCS/Spirit was started by people who use to work for Pacer before they got bought out by Gill. So it would make sense that their poles are rated similarly. But Gill has a separate span for all their lengths of poles, while Spirit does a lot of their 6" lengths on the next span up or down (I forget which), so like you can't compare flexes between 13'6, 14'6, etc Spirits and Pacers, but the 13'/14'/15'/16' poles are usually similar. The shorter poles vary widely between manufacturers in terms of how they flex them, but the end result is about the same.

They don't need to meet to figure out each other's flexes, it's easy enough to just buy poles and flex them yourselves to get a rough idea of how stiff the weight ratings are.

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Re: Pole Charts - Part 2

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:18 am

rainbowgirl28 wrote: ... it's easy enough to just buy poles and flex them yourselves to get a rough idea of how stiff the weight ratings are.

... or rip off a flex chart from an unscrupulous dealer or webmaster ...

Ha! ha! :)

Kirk
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Re: Pole Charts - Part 2

Unread postby golfdane » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:42 pm

I got my roller built for my experiment. I'll get back to this when I get time to measure some poles, that still has known manufacturers data on them.

The real drill for me, is to find a way to compare poles of different manufacturers and lengths, and to get an idea, whether to keep some unlabeled poles or make them into poles for 10-12 year olds.

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Re: Pole Charts - Part 2

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:51 pm

Golfdane, I have some ideas about this that I'll post for you soon. Stay tuned.

Kirk
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Re: Pole Charts - Part 2

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:06 am

Golfdane, if you're going to be buying mostly Nordic poles (cheaper shipping), then I suggest you not worry about how the American poles are rated for weight/flex, and just use your own rig for figuring out the equivalent Nordic flex numbers.

In a nutshell, I think the American poles are all measured with a span starting at the butt plug, and measuring to a point 6 inches below the pole length. This would be consistent with the NFHS rules, which state that you cannot grip a pole's top 6 inches. I think the weight was 50 pounds, placed mid-span. However, since NFHS rules don't apply in Europe, and since your athletes will be more familiar with Nordic weights and flexes, you just need to convert each American pole you have to the Nordic system. And if this is NOT how American poles are measured, then it's immaterial anyway, since you only need to get the equivalent NORDIC flex #s.

I would start out by finding out how Nordic measures theirs. If you can't get that info from the mfr or any dealers, then just measure the Nordic poles that you have in your inventory. Start with the same span as the Americans, and see if the flex numbers match up. If they don't, see if moving the top point of the span up or down gives you an identical flex to the mfr. Once you match up a few poles, you'll know the span that they use. However, maybe they don't use 50 pounds, which could throw a monkey wrench into the works. Then you'll have to vary the weight AND the span. With 2 variables, it's not as easy to figure out.

Then, once the Nordic poles are all verified, your rig is calibrated and ready to use on your American pole inventory - using the same spans and mid-span weight.

I wouldn't worry about the imperial lengths of the American poles. Instead, record the flexes for the spans that your vaulters are likely to use on the poles. For example (and I'll use imperial measures here, since I'm hopeless with the metric system), if you have 14-0, 14-6, and 15-0 poles, your vaulters are likely to grip from 12-6 to 13-6 on the 14-0 footer, 13-0 to 14-0 on the 14-6 pole, and 13-6 to 14-6 on the 15-0 footer. So, in 15cm increments (the metric equivalent of approx 6 inch) - or whatever the normal increments are for the length of Nordic poles - record the flex at the 3 spans that a vaulter is most likely to grip that pole at.

By this process, you will have 3 flexes for each pole thru a range of 3 grips. So even if you have some gaps in your pole lengths, you should be able to compare apples to apples with one pole length to another. As long as the spans are identical, the flex deltas should be a fairly accurate indication of relative stiffnesses.

If you have lots of poles, and hardly any gaps between pole lengths (i.e. lots of poles at each weight in 6-inch pole length increments), then you can probably get by with recording only 2 flexes per pole. Having 3 flexes per pole just makes it easier when you have gaps in your pole lengths.

I suggest you assign a unique 2-digit number to each pole, starting from 01, 02, 03 ... Assign your American pole IDs (IDentifiers) first, then your Nordic poles. Every time you buy a new (presumably Nordic pole), use the next highest unused ID. The ID marked on the pole will then be not only unique, but over time, it will remind you of how new it is (relative to all your other poles).

If some of your vaulters own their own poles, I would assign 2-digit IDs to them too (but just keep track of who owns them). That way, they can also easily transition from personal poles to club poles by the Nordic flex number system that you've set up.

Hope this helps.

Kirk
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Re: Pole Charts - Part 2

Unread postby Rhino » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:38 am

Kirk,
Pretty good general information, but a couple of mistakes, I think.
I don't think there is any NFHS rule prohibiting a grip in the pole's top 6 inches. Rather, vaulters aren't allowed to grip above the weight band (which is placed at the top of many poles).

The span for weighting a pole is more like 12" from the bottom of the pole and 12 or 18" from the top. Support it at the butt plug and the pole will pull off the supports as soon as you hang the weight.

I have weighted 14' and 15' poles on the same span in order to compare the stiffness of different length poles.


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