The Swing

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.

Do you like to swing?

I do!
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I don't know?
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I do not.
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Total votes: 36

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agapit
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Re: The Swing

Unread postby agapit » Tue May 27, 2008 7:37 pm

AeroVault wrote:
agapit wrote:Pecs are the weakest link.
I must tell you that we did not measure the relative strength of the muscle groups that participate in the movement due to lack of funds and equipment available for pole vault research, however we have conducted an extensive empirical research that led us to believe that out of all muscle groups participating in the movement the pecs are the weakest link.

I believe I understand what the pecs are doing. Unlike the fly or dumbell press where your pecs pull your arms around the axis of your body, in the vault, your pecs pull along the axis.

Still, I think of the pecs as a strong muscle group and am curious what led you to believe they are the weakest link. Is it necessary for a vaulter be able to bring their hips to the horizontal bar from a dead hang with only their pecs? Without engaging the abs or hip flexors, the athlete's legs would be cantilevered considerably and would take a great deal of strength. That, which I've only seen in dedicated gymnasts (and then only rarely).


I am very rusty in anatomy, but the actions I describe goes something like this:

Initial Chest penetration: The top arm horizontally extends and laterally rotates backwards. The rear deltoid and lateral rotators are working concentrically and the pectorals, anterior deltoids and medial rotators are being stretched.

Recovery from Chest penetration: The arm horizontally flexes and medially rotates. This involves the pectorals, anterior deltoid and medial rotators working concentrically.

Moving the body from take-off to inverted position requires work of many different muscle groups. I do not know if at any time you can say that a particular muscle group is disengaged from the action. We are talking more about a dominant muscle group at any particular stage of the body rotation.

In simple terms my point is that muscles group involved in the rotation of the arm to shorten the distance between the top hand and the torso are much weaker than the muscle groups that participate in the puling action to, in the similar way, shorten the distance between the top hand and the torso. In addition the puling action is done over the shorter distance and therefore potentially quicker than rotation (so called rowing action).

You can ask here, why are you just focusing on the speeding up of the rotation of the body? Would it not put a vaulter in the position where this is done too quickly and the pole does not penetrate far enough because the center of gravity is rising too quickly (the main factor in the final clearance height)? I must say that to remedy this, the vaulter should attempt to perform this rotation/inversion with a straighter body therefore keeping the center of gravity on average lower for a longer time. In essence this vaulter would put more energy into rotation and control speed of the rotation automatically with the keeping the body as straight as to complete the pole penetration and bar clearance.
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Unread postby powerplant42 » Tue May 27, 2008 8:31 pm

So one should attempt to have a 'low inversion' on the pole, where horizontal momentum is conserved while one gains a good position on the pole? That makes sense! :idea:
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agapit
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Unread postby agapit » Tue May 27, 2008 8:35 pm

powerplant42 wrote:What sort of excercise might strengthen this movement?


Rope swings, pullover the horizontal bar, lat pull downs, pull ups, hand stand on the horizontal bar with small swing and many others.
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agapit
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Unread postby agapit » Tue May 27, 2008 8:42 pm

powerplant42 wrote:So one should attempt to have a 'low inversion' on the pole, where horizontal momentum is conserved while one gains a good position on the pole? That makes sense! :idea:


I am not sure what you mean.

The main obejctive is to create as much vertical speed for the center of gravity as humanly possible. This only could be efectively done with a continuous input. I do not get "low inversion"?

I do not like to think of a possition on the pole because this assumes that you have stopped moving and I think you should never stop moving up.
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Unread postby volteur » Tue May 27, 2008 9:06 pm

powerplant42 wrote:What sort of excercise might strengthen this movement?


That highbar exercise is a very specific form of strengthening and there are simpler leadup exercises to prepare for it. The first one is to start in the same position and jump up and back in the same way but tuck instead of pike and you should rotate inward till the front of your ankles are on the bar.

This is one group of exercises i used to do. The others are the free-hanging ones where you would get more of a prestretch in the shoulder girdle prior to the inversion. Still not as specific as vaulting but a lot more controllable.

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Unread postby vault3rb0y » Tue May 27, 2008 9:15 pm

Just to clarify, the SWING should be long enough to keep the COG lower for a bit longer, to create more vertical velocity when the pole releases?

This is NOT the same as the concept of the take off. Otherwise we would be advocating a low take off angle to keep the COG lower off the ground. I am sure that is not what you are saying, but it could be misconstrued.

Still, i dont fully see how keeping a COG lower with a faster swing will help. I see it more in terms of continually adding energy into the pole with a strong swing. Consequently, the pole will stay loaded and bent more as you penetrate, and your COG will be lower, allowing a lower effective hand grip at maximum bend, leading to a higher possible grip. I feel like talking about COG remaining lower before inversion is complete is an effect, not a cause, of correct vaulting. Correct me if i am wrong.
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Unread postby Robert schmitt » Wed May 28, 2008 12:39 pm

He is talking about the center COG in relation to the top hand, not to the ground

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Unread postby powerplant42 » Wed May 28, 2008 3:38 pm

You can ask here, why are you just focusing on the speeding up of the rotation of the body? Would it not put a vaulter in the position where this is done too quickly and the pole does not penetrate far enough because the center of gravity is rising too quickly (the main factor in the final clearance height)? I must say that to remedy this, the vaulter should attempt to perform this rotation/inversion with a straighter body therefore keeping the center of gravity on average lower for a longer time. In essence this vaulter would put more energy into rotation and control speed of the rotation automatically with the keeping the body as straight as to complete the pole penetration and bar clearance.


agapit Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

powerplant42 wrote:
So one should attempt to have a 'low inversion' on the pole, where horizontal momentum is conserved while one gains a good position on the pole? That makes sense!


I am not sure what you mean.

The main obejctive is to create as much vertical speed for the center of gravity as humanly possible. This only could be efectively done with a continuous input. I do not get "low inversion"?

I do not like to think of a possition on the pole because this assumes that you have stopped moving and I think you should never stop moving up.


All a movement is is an infinite series of positions. I am not trying to indicate a passive phase, I'm just talking about where the COG should be in relation to the top hand: lowish while inverting, in order to preserve horizontal energy and not be too vertical too soon.
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka

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Unread postby agapit » Wed May 28, 2008 7:22 pm

Robert schmitt wrote:He is talking about the center COG in relation to the top hand, not to the ground


Nice correction! Thank you.
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Unread postby agapit » Wed May 28, 2008 8:10 pm

powerplant42 wrote:All a movement is is an infinite series of positions. I am not trying to indicate a passive phase, I'm just talking about where the COG should be in relation to the top hand: lowish while inverting, in order to preserve horizontal energy and not be too vertical too soon.


Let me clarify. I am suggesting that a vaulter should invert immediately after take-off (and the swing as I defined it in the Swing Post) is complete, creating a greater vertical speed component for the center of gravity. However, if it is done too quickly it may prevent the pole from penetrating sufficiently towards the bar. To remedy this one should rotate with the straighter body instead of shortening (speeding up) the rotation. Now, longer body rotation will keep the center of gravity lower in relation to the top hand for a longer time allowing for the sufficient pole penetration. This only can be done through the pulling bottom arm not rowing arms.

As you can imagine this will generate more energy in the system (load pole more) and also allow for further physical development of the vaulter to rotate faster and with the straighter body to allow for sufficient penetration. If instead a vaulter focuses on the "timing" of the rotation, the physical component becomes not as important and actually suppressed since one cannot rotate faster with the same rotation radius without losing the pole penetration. This is an important point (auto feedback effect) that I have described in the Manifesto.

This method of the rotation/inversion will result in complete absence of the so call “pocketâ€
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Unread postby powerplant42 » Wed May 28, 2008 9:52 pm

Ok, no more going in circles, only forward. I understood what you meant, I just like to reword things to suit my brain, and I post it to get others to understand your theories better. :yes: Will you be teaching any of your auto-corrective excercises at SRU this Summer? I really hope so!
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Unread postby decanuck » Fri May 30, 2008 4:46 am

I have two questions.

First, at what exact point does the left arm pull begin, using these three photos i.e. does pulling begin after Photo 1/2/3?

Photo 1
Image

Photo 2
Image

Photo 3
Image

When I first read your manifesto, I thought you were advocating beginning the left arm pull as soon as the vaulter leaves the ground (i.e. Photo 1). I found this lead to me getting "clotheslined" by my own pole and getting insufficient penetration. Are you saying here that the inversion and left arm pull only begin as or after the vaulter has swung to the chord of the pole (i.e. Photo 3)?

Now the second question. Depending on your answer for the first question (Photo 1/2/3), what is the left arm doing BEFORE this point when it begins pulling? Is it pushing (i.e. pushing toward the bar, pushing the pole to vertical, keeping the vaulter behind the pole etc.)? Is this something desirable or something that's just practically necessary in the real world? Should it be emphasized in training or reduced as much as possible?


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