Weird question...

[powerplant42]

Todd Haire, you seem as if you know what you're talking about. Welcome to PVP! Although I would even consider 5-8 reps to be too high in some cases... But still a good post.

[KYLE ELLIS]

3)50-60 grams of protien is not adequate. If you are training hard then you need about one gram per pound of body wieght.That is where the supplements come in.

4)When lifting for strength,5-8 repetitions per set should yield better results than higher repetitions. Increasing the demands on your muscles is how you develop strength and power. That is why it is sometimes referred to as "progressive resistance training". Hope that helps.[/quote]

A gram per per pound?? Maybe if you just got done doing the iron man. Did you read that on some body building websites? No polevaulter does so hard a workout that they need 1 gram per pound... I would say 1 gram per 2lbs is closer. The reason I say you might of got this info from a body building website besides the obvious is that they tell you that you need excess amounts to sell more... Just like the whole creatine loading, its a myth to sell more. A person will make just as much gains taking 5grams per day than someone who lads up the first week. Your body can only hold about 2.5grams at a time.

5-8 reps will yield better results for what strenght? I suggested hypertrophy type lifting to increase the persons muscle mass, that is indeed what they were asking about. And I said if they went to failure on the last set that they would ensure both building muscle and strength, which is true. Yes doing reps from 3-6 would be better for gaining pure strength, but it is difficult to build muscle with those amount of reps. There are different types of lifting you know, strength/ power/ hypertrophy or body building/ strengthening connective tissue/ and endurance.....

I hope this helps like all the smart people like to say

[powerplant42]

And what is this 'hypertrophy lifting' that seems like such a mystery? High weight, low repetitions, long rest between sets. Period. And a gram per pound is more of what we want... if you're actually training for real.

[KYLE ELLIS]

And what is this 'hypertrophy lifting' that seems like such a mystery? High weight, low repetitions, long rest between sets. Period. And a gram per pound is more of what we want... if you're actually training for real.

Powerplant like i have told you, if you don't know what you are talking about then keep quiet. High weight and low reps IS NOT hypertrophy ytpe lifting. Let me explain... When you are doing high weight and low reps you are more fatiguing your nervous system, were most serious strength gains come from. Hypertrophy lifting is higher reps (8-12) with slightly lower weight, with a recomendation to do the last till failure. This works less of the nervous system more so the muscles. This is what body builders do to gain muscle, they don't do high weight with low reps because they aren't as concerned with strength. Even though they will still gain a certain amount of strength doing high volume lifting. So if this person wants to gain muscle, to me this type of lifting is best! Once the gain a certain amount of muscle then maybe they should do higher weight with lower reps to increase their strength defecit.

Muscle mass does not necissarily mean stronger... It means you have a higher absolute strength. Which means if they hooked up an electric device to you to contract all your muscles involuntarily then the person with more mass could lift more.

Strength deficit means how much of your absolute strength you have reached. Lets Say hypothetically i could bench 600lbs weighing 170lbs with an electric device contracting my muscles for me, and without it i can only do 300lbs. That means i have reached 50% of my absolute strength. So if i gained 10lbs of muscle and was ecectrically stimulated i might be able to do 650lbs. But might still only be able to do 300lbs on my own. Strength deficit relies more on your nervous system. And don't get me wrong, you can't ever reach 100%, but you can get reall strong without gaining muscle mass.

Powerplant, I recommend you buy the book supertraining by verkhoshansy. Then you can post whatever you want and i wouldn't have a problem with it.

[powerplant42]

I do not post when I do not know what I'm talking about, unless it is only as a suggestion with a disclaimer.

If you would read the threads that I have posted links to before, then you will have noticed that I have proposed gaining a strength base before doing any real lifting. We are NOT bodybuilders. We are POLE VAULTERS, and hypertrophy is a side-effect. It should NOT be the goal.

High weight and low reps IS NOT hypertrophy ytpe lifting.

I did not say this, though it may have sounded that way. You have suggested this, but I do not see that its benefits outweight the benefits of total body lifts with high weight and low repetitions, with long rests between sets. Once a sufficient strength base has been built, there should be almost NO straying from total body lifts and plyometrics, aside from situps perhaps. You will not convince me otherwise until you explain why I'm wrong, and I am actually amazed that in an excercise physiology class, you did not cover the principles of the stretch-shortening cycle (SSC) at all. I think you are simply looking for an argument, and I grow tired of this. You at least gave SOME evidence in favor of your side of the argument this time, instead of just saying that I am wrong.... Once you have READ the threads that I mentioned earlier, come back with a retort. This is ridiculous, and I will not continue to participate in such nonsensical discussion.

[KYLE ELLIS]

I do not post when I do not know what I'm talking about, unless it is only as a suggestion with a disclaimer.

If you would read the threads that I have posted links to before, then you will have noticed that I have proposed gaining a strength base before doing any real lifting. We are NOT bodybuilders. We are POLE VAULTERS, and hypertrophy is a side-effect. It should NOT be the goal.

High weight and low reps IS NOT hypertrophy ytpe lifting.

I did not say this, though it may have sounded that way. You have suggested this, but I do not see that its benefits outweight the benefits of total body lifts with high weight and low repetitions, with long rests between sets. Once a sufficient strength base has been built, there should be almost NO straying from total body lifts and plyometrics, aside from situps perhaps. You will not convince me otherwise until you explain why I'm wrong, and I am actually amazed that in an excercise physiology class, you did not cover the principles of the stretch-shortening cycle (SSC) at all. I think you are simply looking for an argument, and I grow tired of this. You at least gave SOME evidence in favor of your side of the argument this time, instead of just saying that I am wrong.... Once you have READ the threads that I mentioned earlier, come back with a retort. This is ridiculous, and I will not continue to participate in such nonsensical discussion.

Powerplant you are extremely difficult because you don't see the question at hand! Birdiegurlie wanted to know how to build muscle. And sometimes depending on your body type you might need this. So I was answering her question on how TO BUILD MUSCLE not necissarily building pure strength.

And why do you not think we covered the principles of the SSC? I explained it to you on the thread about stretching? Is there something you would like to know about it? And I always give evidence of my arguement??? And when i say your wrong it is because it goes against what i have learned either in classes or books... And what do you mean by total body lifts? squats?? I agree that plyo's are good, and explosive type lifting is good. But you cant just do that year around... I am sure you know about periodization right? That means you change your workouts to provide a stimilus. So it would be very beneficial for weaker folk to do a bodybuilding phase before a strength/ power phase. So yes I think you should stray from total body lifting and plyo's and you should be constantly changing your workouts. For example to build leg strength for sprinting/jumping doing higher reps and sets of full squats early in the year, then 2-3 months before the competition phase do half squats (with alot of weight!) half squats are more sport specific then full squats. Maybe add in some bulgarian split squat jumps with the half squats. All the while doing bounding and serial jumps. Then when the competition phase starts you should do high intensity plyo's and you shouldn't squat much during this period. This idea comes from verkhoshansy's philosphy on "shock training". All the squatting and bounding and serial jumps are just preperation for the high intesnity plyo stage.

[powerplant42]

I'm glad I saved this PM:
From KYLE ELLIS to powerplant42 regarding the 'stretching' thread:
""You're entire argument here is based on the principle that the SSC is affected by flexibility"

can i ask what the heck ssc stands for. Everything i reference has come from an exercise physiology book, or the book supertraining. im done debating with you because it is pointless."

Hmmmmm...

I have a very small appetite...and I do eat until I feel full. But I need a way to have more protein because I just have a small stomach. [I'm not underweight...I'm just low on the ok-weight scale] And my body burns fat really quickly...seriously. I mean, while a lot of people gain a lot of weight if they don't eat semi-healthily, I can eat all the junk food I want and not gain a pound. I'm trying to gain muscle because I am currently extremely non-muscular and in order to vault higher, I need more muscle.

This is another misconstruance on your part, in a variety of ways. One without perfect technique does NOT need more muscle to vault higher, and you should know that. Someone that does have perfect technique doesn't need more muscle (until they have reached their absolute strength), but they need more POWER. STRENGTH X SPEED = POWER. Strength is only one factor, speed is another. Power can be trained through total body excercises like the power snatch, power clean, push-jerk, deadlift, etc... I am done talking about that, and it seems very apparent that you did not read the threads that I tried to refer you to.

I do not believe I have argued against periodization. It is important, but a vaulter must stay within the realms of plyometrics and Olympic lifts for the most part. Conventional resistance is not as necessary, but should be a small part of the program.

Let's stop getting at eachother's throats about everything. This is no fun. Instead, let's discuss more openly and kindly/respectfully. And when we disagree, let's agree to disagree on the principles of science, and then discuss every point of our argument thoroughly... Please?

I will start. I am curious as to how you might think negative resistance training might fit into a training cycle. What are your thoughts on it? I am relatively neutral and uninformed on this topic, so here's your chance to shape my opinions on something. (For those of you that don't know what it is, negative training is using weights above your 1RM (how much do you think and why?), but slowly performing the 'drop' in the excercise, like letting the bar down in a bench press, or going down in a squat. It is best done with machines, and as should be plainly obvious, with a spotter.)

[VaultMarq26]

Powerplant.....I have to go with Kyle on this one.....I know he a degree in exercise science, as do I, and throughout this post and virtually every post that he has written about strength training he is right on the money. NSCA guidelines. In past posts he has cited books and studies.

I think you are on the right track, but your terminology is not correct. I also understand that you feel like Kyle is taking your statements and twisting them around because they come off differently than you mean them.....well we are not in a room talking...if you give some information on this site and it is taken incorrectly because of the way you typed it up, don't shoot the guy that is confused by what you are saying.

Kyle doesn't have to cite any sources in this argument. In the exercise science community, not body building community, much of what he said is common knowledge.

There is a fine line between giving good advice/knowledge and giving your opinion. Be careful that you don't waste someone's time and money because you feel strongly about your opinion.

[KYLE ELLIS]

Powervaulter, sorry i haven't heard the stretch shortening cycle called the ssc that often. I got thrown off. If you do extreme stretching as some gymnasts or dancers do, then yes I believe that the muscle will build up so much scar tissue that it will lose alot of its elastic properties making its contraction less powerful. Studies are still in the middle with high volume static stretching, some say it affects the "ssc" and some studies shows it doesn't. I am sure elite gymnasts have stretching down to a science as not to negatively affect their bodies.

[KYLE ELLIS]

Powerplant there is no such thing as perfect technique, and some strength gains are necissary before you can even hit certain poitions in the vault. And before you do POWER lifting i think you should definately go through a body building phase so you can have greater gains... This is if you have never had a serious weight training program before or lack muscularity. Bodybuilding is also good for strengthening connective tissue and learning proper technique for your lifts. You can't just throw a new athlete in to high weight/ low rep lifting... especially without some sort of periodization. You say that bulding muscle won't make you jump higher, depending on who you are that could be true. But I say to you also that being able to do higher weights in powerlifts won't make you a better vaulter depending on what level your at... It is all relative!! I would also have to know what type of plyo's you are talking about (if they are even "real" plyo exercises).

I am not that familiar with your idea of negative training. I thought negative training was like you said working on the drop in the lifts. But how and why would you use weights above your 1 rpm? Here are my thought on what you said. I think it is not a good idea at all for vaulters to train this way. 1- If you can't do more than your 1rpm ever unless your muscles are electrically stimulated. If you can its not your current 1rpm. If you consider yourself doing higher than your 1 rpm on a machine you are fooling yourself. 2- Going to past parallel in squat means nothing to a vaulter, bench means little to a vaulter...3- Lifting on machines is different, you dont use stabilizers as much which can make a huge difference things like squatting. These would be great for body builders or power lifters, but they are not sport specific. Plus these movements are very slow like you said. What is more important to a vaulter, jumper, sprinter is Rate of force production, which is why you do plyo's (box reactive jumps) overspeed training etc. There is a certain strength/ power need for a desirable rate of force production but once you reach that level, strength gains should have less focus and increasing your ROF should become your primary goal. This is when periodizaion becomes a major factor! Thats why I mentioned earlier that getting to strong in the squat can actually hurt your performance because it negatively impacts the Rate of force...

[VaultPurple]

Ok, so I recently posted a topic about protein powder and a lot of people said "Muscle Milk" was the best...however, I looked at it online and a lot of reviews said it helped them burn fat...which I really DON'T need to do. [I'm a high-metabolism person...I need the tiny bit of fat on my body!] Now, I know that sounds kinda silly...but do you think that if I take that it'll burn that fat? [please don't be like "you're stupid, of course not." or etc...]

Ok if i do recall right the point of this topic was will Musle Milk cause body fat reduction?

There is a whole nother thread about the propper strength training exercises for pole valuting and their effects on the body... and so forth.


But to answer the question, if you are a small 5'3 100lb girl who probably does not have any fat on their body, then drinking a protein shake will not make you lose weight. The only thing it will do is add weight due to extra protein, and it probably has some carbs and fat too.

There is a reason little old people drink boost (basticaly a protein shake), so that they do not lose weight.

[Todd Haire]

Kyle Ellis, I got my information about protien intake long before there was such a thing as a website. I am familiar with marketing, and of course the manufacturers want to sell thier products. They also put in a lot of research,because if they do not work, they do not sell.
Unless I am mistaken, this forum is for an open exchange of ideas with the intent of helping each other. My intention was to enlighten the original poster as to protien powders and fat burning in plain english.
One need only look at the very impressive numbers put up by Olympic style lifters in the lighter wieght classes to see that great strength can be achieved without great mass.
Personally I shoot for the afore mentioned ratio of protien to bodywieght. I do not have a degree in anything, but as a 20+ year veteran of the moving industry, I have lifted and carried thousands of pounds per day five days a week. So I know something about lifting and at age 46, I know it works for me.
As I said, it is important to do research and get an education on a subject as complex as wieght training. Recovery periods, negatives,pyramids, lifts to failure, partials etc. can be difficult to understand. Many great books on the subject have been written by those more knowledgable than myself. ( Dr. Fred Hatfield)I believe I'll check out the one you refer to. I might learn something.
If you see a turtle sitting on fence post,you know he didn't get there by himself.