Uh Oh! Cross Country is over!!

[KirkB]

6P, I'm very, VERY impressed by how quickly you're "getting it".

Just about your entire post here is good, and I wondered when reading it if it was really you talking. After all, I thought you were the STUDENT!

I forget the ingredients to success that I told you awhile back in the Amish fable, but a couple of the very first ones were to OBSERVE and to UNDERSTAND what you need to do as a pole vaulter. After that, you need your brain to tell your body to follow orders!

What I see in this post of yours is the beginning of a very good understanding of what it takes to train to be a pole vaulter. I liked the entire post, but I'll just highlight the parts that I liked the best ...

... i grew up, hanging on monkey bars and doing handstands in gym class. ...

... pole vaulting/gymnastics require totally unorthodox strength. Think about it; is it a normal movement, to be hanging then move to vertical and then push off?? NO! haha. you have to be strong in specific muscle groups that most lifting doesn't help you with. which leads to the difference between STATIC strength, and DYNAMIC strength.

... DYNAMIC: ... means "strength by movement". pertaining to how well you can move your own body, around an environment, as OPPOSED to moving weight around your body. Since, in the pole vault, constant movement is emphasized, obviously a vaulter wants a high level of DYNAMIC strength. ...

... in the words of my high school coach, "you can always be stronger". So since I want to jump 16' this season, i'm going to do everything i can, to make sure that the muscles i'm going to be using in the vault are going to be...up to snuff.

I accomplish this in 1 way. I have a very diverse training routine. Look at bubka, he had something like...17 workouts a week?? and i think only 1 or 2 was lifting. and he did it ONLY TO MAINTAIN CERTAIN MUSCLE GROUPS. I think we could all admit though that we're nowhere near his physical ability, so we could all lift a bit ...

... As a vaulter, you want to be light, fast and strong. so you CAN NOT BULK UP. However, there is a difference between bulking up and gaining 15 pounds of solid muscle, as stated above. You want to have good '%' strength. (EXAMPLE: i only weigh 130 lbs, but i can squat 270 lbs).

My Plyo workouts help me develop fast-twitch muscles, which keep me fast and "springy" ...

My gymnastics workout (which i believe is what most people are leaning towards you to do) works EVERYTHING. When you do specific gymnastics exercises, BASED AROUND THE POLE VAULT, not only does it help technique, but it also provides AMAZING CALISTHENIC movements ...

... you should build a workout routine, structured around you, building lean, non-bulky, muscle. There's a bunch of ways to do this ... start light, a lot of calisthencs. ...

I hope you don't mind me fixing your typos!

Have you seen the movie "Pay It Forward"? That's what I'm doing, that's what PP does, that's what many other posters on PVP do, and now I see that that's what you're doing!

Kirk

[joebro391]

Oh kirk, you make me feel so warm inside hahaha

[Lax PV]

The biggest problem with alot of the kids I work with is that they think nothing is wrong with their technique. If you are only jumping 9ft you gave a long way too go, I jumped 17ft and wasn't even close to accomplishing my technical model.

One of the best things I have seen in a while. Being humbled is not always a bad thing--in and out of the vault.

I agree that the strength training can increase motor control--there is plenty of science backing that up. I also think that too many people are trying to lift more weight than they should. In weight TRAINING, which is what we are doing--not lifting for sake of lifting, but with a training goal in mind--unless you are in a high volume training phase, all concentric movements should be completed in just one second. The idea is to have a fast amoritization phase (that is, the changing of muscle lengthening to shortening--often called a stretch shorten cycle in plyometrics). That said, I see a LOT of people training at a max of 315. 315 likes to get kicked around as a common max cause it's 3 plates, and is a psychological thing (much like 13', 5.20 or 5.50 etc.). However, if you indeed have a FULL RANGE of motion at a certain weight, I strongly suggest using a max of 80% of that number for all of your "weight that should be used" calculations. I am a big math guy so everything I do is calculated off of various strength curves that I have developed from books and trial and error. Long story short, lifting in a weight room can be great, but I think too many people (myself included when I was competing) train to hard, and use too much weight.

As far as a newbie--I really dislike the dichotomy in saying that "you should be able to squat twice your body weight to partake in plyometrics" or "You need a PR of 113' (or 15'..or anything) to do X-like training." Every case is a little different, and should be treated that way. In addition to that, a lot of the high bar stuff is really hard--especially for the new guys. Maybe the weight room isn't a bad place to go about that learning curve...

[KYLE ELLIS]

Yes lax you hit on a good point. I actually read an article from an olympic lifting coach that never used more than a lifters 3rpm because of the toll that the weights have on the CNS. I definately agree that high school and even college kids need to be careful with the major lifts, and I hope they would have a knowledgable source helping them with volume and intensity.

[powerplant42]

start light, a lot of calisthencs. ...

Got ya KB.

6P, I am still a little bit perplexed by your terminology of 'static' and 'dynamic' strength, and even more by your definitions... the only type of 'static' excercise that I can think of is isometric excercise, which you are clearly not limiting 'static' to. Try instead, "explosive" and "non-explosive" strength. I understand your meaning, because the connotation is definitely there, but you should really try to be as accurate in your wording as possible (which I have many times found out the hard way!).

Back in the day,

Honestly? I'm actually suprised KB didn't jump on that one!

The situation might seem paradoxical: As the vaulter gets better and better, the time that it takes to fix technique becomes greater and greater, yet strength training becomes more and more important, because it begins to limit the vaulter more than before their level of technical efficiency.

But would you rather have a highly athletic vaulter with average technical ability, or an average athlete with high technical ability? I know what I would choose. We discussed this question in an old thread, I remember it...

[joebro391]

6P, I am still a little bit perplexed by your terminology of 'static' and 'dynamic' strength, and even more by your definitions... the only type of 'static' excercise that I can think of is isometric excercise, which you are clearly not limiting 'static' to. Try instead, "explosive" and "non-explosive" strength. I understand your meaning, because the connotation is definitely there, but you should really try to be as accurate in your wording as possible (which I have many times found out the hard way!).

i couldn't explain it any better than i already have. And you're the only person that ever disagreed with that terminology. I mean, I've talked to physical trainers, and college coaches, and gymnasts, and vaulters, and all of them were very familiar with the difference between 'static' and 'dynamic' strength. I first heard that terminology in a book on muscle tissue, and then everyone was using it. I can't be any more accurate in my wording, perhaps you should research it a bit more. Look it up. maybe google "static and dynamic strength" or "static and dynamic strength applications"

Honestly? I'm actually suprised KB didn't jump on that one!

The situation might seem paradoxical: As the vaulter gets better and better, the time that it takes to fix technique becomes greater and greater, yet strength training becomes more and more important, because it begins to limit the vaulter more than before their level of technical efficiency.

But would you rather have a highly athletic vaulter with average technical ability, or an average athlete with high technical ability? I know what I would choose. We discussed this question in an old thread, I remember it...

not sure where you were going with this, really. I know i rather have a athlete with a better technique to strength ratio, as per agapit's own experiences. Remember, some of the calasteic training, mainly as gymnastic training, is both technique work, as well as strength work.

I want to wait and hear what chsvaulter's goals are, before we take this any further

[chsvaulter]

Wow, Okay im a bit overwhelmed by all the advice that everyone is giving and i must say their is a lot of it.

All of it seems to be good and i'll start with my goals, my goal is to do at least twelve feet this year.

Recently i have become very fit and strong, and i think my old PR is gonna say BYe Bye.

But to satisfy, my goal is twelve, i can do 15 pull ups in a row,

50 pushups, bench press 105 about 45 times and im not really sure what a good.

My core is fine and i work on it every other day,

100m is about 14.9 last year, probly 12 secs rite now,

ive been in the weight room for the last two weeks but thankfully i havent gotten much bigger, just stronger.

for track im gonna have to do the mile so im gonna let running just take care of my legs, i still got hops, dont worry.

someone give me a reasonable number of reps/weight for me because i can do most things for like 3 sets of about 10-20 depending.

is that gonna get me bigger? or is that a good amount of reps?

next, just having you all debate on my topic has caused me to learn alot about how to work out, thank you.

soo, last year i had a back injury while vaulting. it was a torn muscle or something that still bothers me once in a while to this day, ive been doing core to help it but i think some damage was done that will be very hard to fix.

i go to Churchill High School and i was wondering if anyone knows Vern Williams my coach, He has a winter and summer camp.

anyways thanks for the advice, there was so much that im pretty sure i didnt answer all questions. so sorry,

[KYLE ELLIS]

[quote="chsvaulter"]
"But to satisfy, my goal is twelve, i can do 15 pull ups in a row,
50 pushups, bench press 105 about 45 times and im not really sure what a good."

None of these are really sport specific.

"100m is about 14.9 last year, probly 12 secs rite now,"

This is more sport specific than anything else listed.

"ive been in the weight room for the last two weeks but thankfully i havent gotten much bigger, just stronger."

Science tells us that hypertrophy doesn't happen in the first two weeks of lifting, you can get stronger due to increase recruitment of muscle fibers and stimulation of the CNS.

"for track im gonna have to do the mile so im gonna let running just take care of my legs, i still got hops, dont worry."

keep in mind you can do whatever you want, and you should do what you like. But this is going to hinder your vaulting and training immensely! Just doing any type of running is not going to help your vaulting.

"someone give me a reasonable number of reps/weight for me because i can do most things for like 3 sets of about 10-20 depending.
is that gonna get me bigger? or is that a good amount of reps?"

It can make you bigger if you are using enough weight, I would recommend 3sets of 4-8reps with heavier weight to increase strength and fiber recruitment.

"next, just having you all debate on my topic has caused me to learn alot about how to work out, thank you."

Do more research than what is said on here. Search the internet for reliable articles related to this matter.

[KirkB]

Back in the day,

Honestly? I'm actually suprised KB didn't jump on that one!

There's bigger fish to fry, PP. Five years ago isn't what I call "back in the day", but I didn't jump on it because I knew what he meant. I agree it's quite funny to hear a HS Sr. talk about Grade 7-8 as "back in the day", but it's all relative, isn't it?

Let's drop the typo-talk too. It deflects us from more important things that we need to discuss.

I don't want to improve 6P's spelling. I want to improve his POLE VAULTING! Give me choice between a good speller or a good pole vaulter, and I'll pick a good pole vaulter any day of the week!

There ... you see how much time I wasted talking about chaff? Enough nonsense about nonsense!

But the rest of your post is so good that I'm going to create a new thread for it!

Kirk

[joebro391]

All of it seems to be good and i'll start with my goals, my goal is to do at least twelve feet this year.

that seems pretty reasonable, if not, not too reasonable. A lot of technique work, over strength, will get you there.

i can do 15 pull ups in a row, 50 pushups, bench press 105 about 45 times

My core is fine and i work on it every other day,

100m is about 14.9 last year, probly 12 secs rite now

That's not too bad man, a VERY good base, i think. Keep on with the pull up's and push-ups., but i'd say increase your weight (in the bench press, obviously) to about 135 and reduce the reps, to around 12 (however, I don't even do that exercise, but since we're building bases, still, I don't think we have to get into specific exercises, JUST YET.

ive been in the weight room for the last two weeks but thankfully i havent gotten much bigger, just stronger.

yea, i agree with kyle. 2 weeks isn't really long enough to determine what this routine will do to you haha. just keep at it and over a greater period of time, you'll see what it does

for track im gonna have to do the mile so im gonna let running just take care of my legs, i still got hops, dont worry.

hmmm...if you have to mile, okay, but like Kyle said, it's gonnna hinder your vaulting. here's why: when you mile, you run at a MUCH MUCH slower pace than a vaulting sprint. In short, running at the pace, doesn't work any of the "fast-twitch" muscles, that i discussed, earlier. Fast twitch muscles, are vital to performing the pole vault (think about taking a career shot putter and trying to get him to pole vault...it just doesn't work like that. Primarily because the thrower has spent his life training and working groups of muscles, sport-specific to his event) In order to work fast twitch muscles, is through lots of HARD sprinting and plyometrics (such as in my current workout routine)

someone give me a reasonable number of reps/weight for me because i can do most things for like 3 sets of about 10-20 depending.

is that gonna get me bigger? or is that a good amount of reps?

those amount of reps, probably won't, however the figure that kyle gave, is similar to what a body-builder would do, close to this competition season (to maximize size). i'd probably say that the best amount or repitions, per set, for WHAT WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING, would be more around 12-15. Higher than 15 reps, depending on the weight, might start to strain your muscles. (there are, however, things called 'supersets' but i'm honestly not too familiar, i'd have to revert back to a trainer for the low-down on those) but for right now, i'd say, around 12-15 reps per set, with weight that you can comfortable control. that'll increase your strength without bulking you up much. The size and weight that you WILL gain with that workout, would be solid muscles (provided you have a 'good' diet. Solid muscle won't hinder you because you're gaining more strength, per pound of your own weight (%-strength) remember that example i gave you?? haha

[quote[ soo, last year i had a back injury while vaulting. it was a torn muscle or something that still bothers me once in a while to this day, ive been doing core to help it but i think some damage was done that will be very hard to fix. [/quote][/quote][/quote] oi, i had a very serious back injury, last year, but i fixed it, primarilly with those core exerciese i do, also detailed in my training blog.


Take care. -6P

[KYLE ELLIS]

"but for right now, i'd say, around 12-15 reps per set, with weight that you can comfortable control. that'll increase your strength without bulking you up much. The size and weight that you WILL gain with that workout, would be solid muscles"

Joe that is wrong. Doing high reps is what causes hypertrophy. You don't really gain mass by doing small amounts of reps with high weight. A body builder would actually do high reps 12 or more with about 75% 1rpm or so... What you recommended wouldn't increase strength much for an experienced lifter and if they used enough weight for the overload principle they most likely would bulk up.

[joebro391]

What you recommended wouldn't increase strength much for an experienced lifter

but he's not an experienced lifter, remember the whole discussion on 'bases' and what not?? the definition of "hypertrophy" is: increase in bulk (as by thickening of muscle fibers). Here's the thing, like we stated on the first page, there's a difference between bulking, like a body builder would, and like a person, packing on 15lbs of muscle would. high reps and low weights, would thicken the muscle fiber, in a manner that would be proportional to the amount of weight he's gaining. There would be no loss in the strength to weight ratio.

In the off-season (winter) body builders build up their muscles from the inside out, with high reps and whatever weight they could handle. But right before competition season, in the summer, they would shed a lot of the fat they put on, during the winter. In addition, they would try to give their muscles a 'pump' or a temporary explosion in size, but doing low reps with extreme weight. this is when you see guys doing 4 reps of 385 on the bench press.