What comes first - athleticism or technical ability?

[KirkB]

PowerPlant42 raised this issue on another thread ...

The situation might seem paradoxical: As the vaulter gets better and better, the time that it takes to fix technique becomes greater and greater, yet strength training becomes more and more important, because it begins to limit the vaulter more than before their level of technical efficiency.

But would you rather have a highly athletic vaulter with average technical ability, or an average athlete with high technical ability? I know what I would choose. We discussed this question in an old thread, I remember it...

I couldn't find the "old thread", so I created this one. I think it's worth a good round of discussion.

I've heard several coaches on this forum advise that high schoolers shouldn't lift weights. Instead, they should only work on gymnastics, running, and PV technique.

But to execute proper PV technique, you need a certain amount of what I'll call "general athleticism" - general all-around strength and fitness. At what year in HS should college prospects begin to specialize in PV? If it's not advisable to specialize too early, what other sports or events are complimentary to PV?

This proposed discussion should also cover how - as a coach - you transform a young PV prospect into a pole vaulter. Let's assume most readers of PVP are US based, so we're assuming that these PV prospects don't have the opportunities that the "Soviet System" or other European systems have/had in starting PVers at a very early age.

So what's the best year-to-year training principles and practices to get an athlete to the point where: (1) he can do well in his HS state championships; (2) get a scholarship to a US college; (3) hit the elite ranks after college; and (4) become a world-class vaulter.

There's an assumption that this is at least a 3-stage process. High-schoolers and collegiate athletes don't have the maturity or technique yet to make it to the elite ranks. There's exceptions, of course, but let's assume a multi-multi-year progression thru the ranks.

The biggest "catch-22" seems to be that you need to get some good PRs in HS to attract the attention of college coaches. You'll never get to the elite ranks if you don't do well in HS. Yet if you focus too much on short-term goals, you're maybe doing too much weight-lifting too early - or too late?

And this question: How can you have good PV technique if you don't have good athleticism and "core strength" first, yet if you wait until you're strong, fit and fast - before you start specialized PV training - aren't you letting too much HS training time slip by?

So, which comes first, the chicken or the egg? As an athlete, what's best? As a coach, what would you encourage by way of your PV training program?

PP, you raised this question, so why don't you start off by saying what was on your mind? Do you think you should be lifting in HS? Will this raise or lower your HS PR? Will that, in turn, reduce your chances for a college scholarship? Or?

If PP doesn't get cracking, his "perfect technique" with a mere 14-0 jump isn't going to get him any college scholarships.

And did Six-Pack's weight-lifting in Jr. High help him or hinder him?

What's the "usual" case history? What's the BEST scenario?

Kirk

[nitro]

A famous man told me if you want to jump college bars train like a college vaulter, and I'm sure if you want to be an Olympian you should train like an Olympian. They both lift weights and don't see why high schoolers shouldn't.

[joebro391]

And this question: How can you have good PV technique if you don't have good athleticism and "core strength" first, yet if you wait until you're strong, fit and fast - before you start specialized PV training - aren't you letting too much HS training time slip by?

So, which comes first, the chicken or the egg? As an athlete, what's best? As a coach, what would you encourage by way of your PV training program?

PP, you raised this question, so why don't you start off by saying what was on your mind? Do you think you should be lifting in HS? Will this raise or lower your HS PR? Will that, in turn, reduce your chances for a college scholarship? Or?

If PP doesn't get cracking, his "perfect technique" with a mere 14-0 jump isn't going to get him any college scholarships.

And did Six-Pack's weight-lifting in Jr. High help him or hinder him?

What's the "usual" case history? What's the BEST scenario?

Kirk

damn, this is really tough Kirk. Honestly, this could be the thesis for a student, going for their masters degree in exercise science. haha. I mean, this is serious business, where it is better to be answered my coaches or elite vaulters with years of experience, than some amature vaulters that want to go from 14' to 16' in high school.

Secondly, would it be better to hear what i 'feel' would be best? or what i did to get to where i am now?? SINCE I'M NOT AN ELITE VAULTER, perhaps it would be better to post what i 'feel' would be best. Let's give it a crack! Personally, i don't think there's a 'right' answer to this, only what has shown to give good results and what is 'theroretically' ideal for vaulting.

In my experiences, which i'll be honest, aren't TOO vast, considering my short, 17 years of life, the best athletes are 'born' with a 'god-given talent'. Now, not to be racist, but most people are familiar with the african american dominace in sports (aside from vaulting, but that's a different thread, for a different day)?? From what i've studied and learned, that talent is from a 'small breeding pool', where the 'fast twitch muscles' that african american's are constantly kept in the pool. Perhaps that's a little out there, but that's my starting point. GOOD GENES!!!!!

I believe that, if any athlete is willing to work hard, they can achieve what they want. But i fail as a coach, when i say, i'm kinda like the russians. I can be very tough, and rigerous. If someone, 5'4 210lbs, (perhaps built like a shot-putter) where to come up to me and tell me they wanted to vault, i'd probably just change their mind. NOT TO SAY, that they couldn't grow, and loose that weight, and be 6', 185lbs of solid muscle, in a year or two, but I'm saying, AT THE MOMENT I highly doubt that it would happen. And that's where it starts to me; it starts with a natural, born talent/genes. I mean, come on, I'M LUCKY!! not to say that Bubka didn't have MUCH BETTER GENES THAN ME, but i still have better genes that most people. I can't dunk a basketball, but i always fast, and always had excellent dynamic strength (playing on the monkey bars as age 3!!) SO, in short, there is a degree of natural athleticism required, ESPECIALLY, in vaulting.

NEXT, i feel that maturity, NOT AGE, is a factor in how to train. As we all know, puberty is not written to kick in at any specific age. PERFECT EXAMPLE: i'm 17, and am 5'7, with almost no facial hair. meanwhile, a kid around her, dan batdork, had a beard, freshman year, and that degree of physical maturity, i believe, is was truely helped him jump, 15'6 last year. HOWEVER, had he had better technique, there's not doubt in my mind that he coulda gone 16'6, and he probably will soon, in college. ANYWAY, BACK ON TOPIC. my point is, age is not a factor, only physical maturity. FOR INSTANCE: a freshman that is 6'1, with a full beard, has obvioulsy developed eariler and faster, than the freshman that is 5'4 and weighs 100lbs {cough}me{cough} and will, in turn train differenlty.

As for weights...this is tough, but i believe that ALL atheletes should have a STRONG background in calastetics. It's the best 'base' to build on. Think of it like this: before you put the siding on a house, you want to make sure that all the supports are up, and in all the right places (i used to do construction). Without those VITAL 'supports', the siding would just cave in on itself. Once you have this 'base', THEN, you can move on, to specific training, such as Pole Vault Technique and weight-training.

As far as a 'timeline' i'd say, what i did might have been good, if not a little late and improper. I'll list what i did, from when i started becoming a vaulter to now, THEN, i'll say what I feel, would be ideal (hey, that rhymed! haha)

WHAT I DO/HAVE DONE:
age 3 to current - monkey bars
age 5 to current - handstands and what not
age 8 ...to current?? hehe - lots of climbing (trees...refridgerators hahaha)
age 12 to current - push ups and sit ups
age 13 to 15 - weight room (15 hours a week, for bulk ) Started martial arts training, as base for gymnastics
age 15 to current - heavy martial arts, gymnastics training
age 16 to current - running with the track team, light plyo's, gymnastics, BEGAN VAULTING!!
AGE 17 (senior year) - 2 plyo days a week, 2 lifting days a week, 1 - 2 gymnastics days a week, 1 vaulting day, 1 light running day (soon to change, due to impending track season approaching)

WHAT I WISH I COULD HAVE DONE: (based on US majority system, of track, starting at age 14)
age 3 to current - monkey bars
age 5 to current - handstands and what not
age 8 ...to current?? hehe - lots of climbing (trees...refridgerators hahaha)
age 12 to current - push ups and sit ups; start martial arts training as stong base for gymnastics
age 13 to current - start gymnastics training
age 14 to current - join track, START VAULTING!!; working mostly on plyo's (high jump and long jump training on side
age 15 to 16 - start light lifting; once a week or so, with very low weight and very high reps
age 16 1/2 to current - 2 Plyo days a week, 2 All-around lifting days a week, 2 gymnastic days a week, 1 - 2 vaulting days a week.
FUTURE - if i knew, i wouldn't be reading so much PVP

as you can see, i feel my base was pretty strong. I just wish i had started gymnastics/vaulting earlier and not gone through that period of heavy, bulk lifting between the ages of 13 and 15. I feel my workout now, is pretty good, I'd add a third gymnastics day, but I honestly feel that that might make my current workout, too much for my still developing body. REMEMBER, that my 'ideal' training has to do, mostly with my body and how it's developed/developing. we can't all be like tommy skippier and be 6'2 190lbs in highschool and run a 11.6 100m (all estimates). So who knows, it depends on the athlete, but i feel that that workout could make a very good pole vaulter, PROVIDED, he does have some good genes in his body and a natural ability for dynamic exercises. -6P

[IAmTheWalrus]

I think this is a good discussion to have. Let me give you my experiences, and then my opinions.

1) MANY vaulters go through high school as a vault specialist, and practice mainly vaulting or vault drills. When they get to college, these vaulters tend to have a DROP in PR their freshman year. This, I believe, is primarily due to lack of sufficient strength and conditioning to handle the demanding college training.

2) If you are vaulting a specific way for a long time (say taking off very inside with a very flat takeoff ) it becomes very difficult to make changes

I think you need to strength train and properly condition yourself in high school. I vaulted 6 days a week in high school. That was VERY DUMB! Sprint mechanics, core strength, speed, and explosiveness can be easy to overlook at times, but are essential. Proper technique requires a certain amount of athleticism and not being athletic enough to execute proper technique can make it harder to change your technique later. You also must take into account what's available. If you have a gymnastics facility, that's GREAT. Most vaulters don't, and many schools don't even have indoor track. This is the perfect time for weight training. Then as the season begins you can move away from the weights and more towards plyometric exercises and pole vault specific technique and strength drills, as well as vaulting of course.

Sorry for the wordiness, but I feel that for high school, the pareto principle, or 80/20 rule applies with lifting. In other words, lifting is essential, but a small allocation of resources to lifting can have a big payoff (20% effort - > 80% result) while allocating more and more resources after a certain point yieled diminishing results (the remaining 20% is achieved through 80% of the effort). So they should lift, but not too intensely or often, and focus much more highly on technique, however lifting cannot be neglected, and must be frequent enough to make strength gains (just going once in a while is not enough) That's my opinion, any others?

[powerplant42]

I'm sorry I haven't responded yet. Here we go:

First of all, of course we're all aware that, ultimately: it depends. But I'll generalize.

Here's your typical American pole vaulter's situation at the start of their career:
Our new vaulter is an energetic, decently athletic freshman in high school, trying pole vault out in the Spring, just because it looks like a lot of fun, and they don't have to run for miles on end or deal with countless 400m repeats. Their school has an okay track team, and an okay football team, but football gets all the money. So our vaulter is stuck with a lack of facilities... Perhaps there's an old pit at the school, there is definitely not a large pole selection, and the standards are not in great shape, but are mostly usable. Our vaulter's coach (who is around to coach every once in a while) has heard talk of some Russian guy that said some stuff about some wierd technical model or something like that, and he likes some of it, but doesn't understand a lot of it, so will just teach what he's comfortable with. The main coaching phlisophy is simply based on what he did in high school and what he read 'a few years back'. The coach is in on the workings of the athletic department, so can pretty much get all the weight room time that they want for our new pole vaulter. Our vaulter is ambitious, but is lost in all the information on pole vault technique that they have access to, so they watch youtube videos and try to copy those athletes' technique, regardless of what model is being used. Our vaulter is hooked on the sport now, but is being exposed to a lot of bad influences.

Does that sound accurate? I will continue that train of thought later...

Let me revise my 'training paradox': (Assume that every minute spent improving techinical efficiency could also be spent lifting, and that coaching and equipment for each is perfect.) As the vaulter improves technical efficiency, it takes more and more time to improve technical efficiency, and the efficiency gained will grant less and less footage. As the vaulter becomes stronger and stronger, their strength will begin to increase more slowly and more slowly, and the increases in strength will grant less and less footage.

Puzzling... A resolution?

Partially: The key is of course the vaulter's LIMITING FACTOR! Remember that what should be focussed on is what is hindering the vaulter most, and what can be most easily improved. ***This is totally aside from short term versus long term vaulting; I will discuss that later, perhaps with the help of our generic first-year vaulter. (Let's call him Fred.)

[joebro391]

Their school has an okay track team, and an okay football team, but football gets all the money. So our vaulter is stuck with a lack of facilities... Perhaps there's an old pit at the school, there is definitely not a large pole selection, and the standards are not in great shape, but are mostly usable.

STORY OF MY FRIGGEN LIFE!!! haha, more so, my sophomore year, but the football team really does get all the money. Which is ridiculous considering they always finish the season 2-12, meanwhile i can win states but don't have the right pole )= But I'm taking care of that now

But Oh My God, PP, that was the greatest story ever "typical american vaulter", cause it's so true!! hahaha

[KYLE ELLIS]

Definately athletic ability.

[altius]

Definitely technical ability - assuming of course that you understand the technical model you are aiming for. If you dont then it probably does not matter much what you do, You can even waste your time running cross country or improving your bench press.

[VTechVaulter]

Depends on the coach.

IF you have a profound understanding of the technical model.. then go find yourself someone whos big strong fast (and one who can listen). Then you wind up with a really good vaulters.

IF you have no understanding of a solid technical model... then you better hope you get lucky and find someone whos amazingly technical already, and go make them fast and strong.

personally i think option one is the best.

in terms of lifting.. i think pole vaulters should stick to 2 things.
1. bicep curls. lots of them, and different types.
2. calf raises

youll never be able to jump high without solid beach muscles!



(sorry that last part is humor, i thought it was funny)

[IAmTheWalrus]

A solid tan is also essential

[Lax PV]

Depends on the coach.

IF you have a profound understanding of the technical model.. then go find yourself someone whos big strong fast (and one who can listen). Then you wind up with a really good vaulters.

IF you have no understanding of a solid technical model... then you better hope you get lucky and find someone whos amazingly technical already, and go make them fast and strong.

personally i think option one is the best.

in terms of lifting.. i think pole vaulters should stick to 2 things.
1. bicep curls. lots of them, and different types.
2. calf raises

youll never be able to jump high without solid beach muscles!



(sorry that last part is humor, i thought it was funny)

HA. I read that, and was like... really? Are you kidding me? ...and then saw it was a joke. I am still making my decision on this...I will have a post sometime soon...

[vaultwest]

I hate to be a downer but to me this is a false question. They are both equally important. A person might just as well ask would, as a vaulter, it be worse to lose your right arm or your left arm. I mean you could argue which arm is more important but I think if you don't have both arms you are not going to be a vaulter. I think both athleticism and technical ability are equally important and emphasizing one aspect over the other is counterproductive. Balance
Vault On