Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

[powerplant42]

To know what is good you must also know what is bad.

Doug... Maybe you'll agree with me on this. Stu blocks (or at least it looks that way) because she has a grip much wider than her shoulders. No?

[dougb]

Doug... Maybe you'll agree with me ont this. Stu blocks (or at least it looks that way) because she has a grip much wider than her shoulders. No?


Actually I don't know. It could be that; or it could be that she uses a wider grip to allow her to block out easier. As Kirk says only the vaulter knows.
You could ask Suhr. What ever she is doing it is what he wants her to do. A lot of very good vaulters use a wide grip. It is probably more a matter of comfort than anything else. Like how wide a grip do use on a high bar?

But relative to, "Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad": Her blocking out does not appear to destroy or even hinder the continuous chain of the vault. She does appear to be out of position when she is pushing off, but I think it would be a stretch to attribute that to blocking out.

Perhaps the very question "Good or Bad?" drives people to one exreme or another.
Maybe we ought to be asking: How does pressing with the bottom arm fit in with the other movements of the vault?

More questions than answers here. Sorry,but hopefully food for thought.

doug

[powerplant42]

Every time I have asked vaulters to jump onto a bar and get ready to swing, they have gripped approximately shoulder width. That is biomechanically the best way to swing on a bar, no?

[dougb]

Every time I have asked vaulters to jump onto a bar and get ready to swing, they have gripped approximately shoulder width. That is biomechanically the best way to swing on a bar, no?

Here is a video of a girl doing giants, that i picked at random. Notice that, when she gets on to the high bar her hands are at about shoulder width but shen she she is doing the giant she has shifted her hands closer together. Which is the most efficient? Or is it, which is the most comfortable?
Not everything can be boiled down to good or bad.
doug

[powerplant42]

Why did Warmerdam slide his hands together at take-off? (RHETORICAL... maybe people didn't get that!)

I guess that that would really be better than shoulder width, but there is no way you can carry the pole like that or use a flexible pole with a grip that narrow because it would be impossible to control if something small happened.

[dougb]

If you want to know about stiff pole vault (vaulting on a pipe) take a look at:

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=13428

do not try any of this on a fiberglass pole. I am here to tell you it won't work!

doug

[rainbowgirl28]

This is what i keep thinking about kirk; and i've been thinking about this for the past 2/3 days. Remember that coach that PP described, in that thread about the imaginary vaulter?? Remember how the coach kept steering his young athletes, at such an impressionable age, down the wrong vaulting path?? Do you remember what I told you about the Coach at Lynchburg?? That's who I fear doug is and I'm so afraid that he's going to take opportunity, away from youngh athletes that strive to be great, but get taught the wrong thing. And that's why i'm taking this thread so seriously, and trying to get Doug to understand Proper Technique

If I hear one more outburst like this from you, you're going to take a forced vacation from the board.

I think it's great that you high school kids are so eager to learn. But you are young and inexperienced and way too eager to run your mouth about stuff.

I consider posts like the above to be a personal attack and they are not tolerated on the board.

Reading Beginner to Bubka does not make you an expert on the pole vault. Alan didn't write the book after spending years reading books about pole vaulting. Yes. he studied everything he could get his hands on, but he also went out there and applied it in the field by coaching. I hope that you guys are able to vault in college and are able to have a long coaching career. And I am sure your thirst for knowledge and desire to constantly improve will help you be great coaches (or at least solid ones).

But you're not there yet. Being a 14' high school boy vaulter who has read B2B and agapit's posts on my website does not make you an expert on the sport. This board is a great place for discussion, but you guys need to stop acting like you are the authority on the pole vault.

You guys also need to understand that Beginner to Bubka is not the gospel of Petrov. 98% of the people on this site have never met Petrov and have never been to any of his clinics. Alan has, several times, and B2B is heavily influenced by Petrov. But at the end of the day, it's Alan's interpretation of Petrov, with plenty of Alan's own stuff in there. And that's not a bad thing, by any means, it's a great book and I wouldn't be selling it if I thought otherwise.

But you high schoolers need to stop preaching the gospel of Petrov when you have no idea what you are talking about. Stop assuming that Alan and Roman are Petrov. Bubka is not Petrov either. Unless you are actually quoting Petrov, you are quoting someone else's interpretation of his work.

If you are serious about studying Petrov, you should be serious about getting to know David Butler at Rice University. Coach Butler has spend thousands of dollars of his own money traveling to visit Petrov in Italy and anytime Petrov comes to the United States. Here is a great video to get you started: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0052593028

So to sum up what I am saying, all of you high school vaulters need to stop acting like the authority on the Petrov model, and don't ever make personal attacks on coaches who have been coaching the pole vault since before you were born. Some day every one of you high schoolers will look back at your posts and wish you had shut your mouth more.

[dougb]

Kirk

I don't know that he was a foot under. The vids were very long-range and hard to see the details of his takeoff. I wouldn't call it a "tuck and shoot". He does follow the Petrov model - to a point - but his style is more of a "pike and shoot". I see that as better than tuck/shoot, but still sub-optimal compared to classic Petrov. But as far as pike/shoots go, his is the most incredible style that I've ever seen!

Take a look at Brads 6 meter vault on stabhoch.com and click forward to the flat back position. His body position could not be more different from Bubka's .

Not faulting either one they are just using a different model.

doug

[fx]

Thank you

[dougb]

I wrote
[quote][An analogy would be a boxing jab, but it's not a perfect analogy. The bottom arm isn't locked neccessarily and may even flex from the load, but it still putting pressure on the pole. As the pole bends the pressure is released to where the vaulter is hanging stairght armed from the pole. The time that it takes for this to happen approaches 0 and so it appears that the arm does not push, but is pulled to extension.
/quote]

Altius wrote

[quote][... the lower hand and arm are carefully positioned at the instant the pole tip hits the back of the box. This allows the bottom arm to initially hit the pole and then to dynamically relax as the top arm loads the pole. ... The pole initially begins to flex as the result of the kinetic energy transferred to it naturally by the vaulter.
/quote]

Different words same idea.

doug

[powerplant42]

Excellent video...

[dougb]

[quote][Notice how his bottom arm collapses and his hand almost hits his forehead? Do you consider this good or bad?
/quote]


Nice video. I hadn't seen that vault before.

I would use this example in a disscusion about the free take off. Why?

He took off too far out and got sucked under when the pole hit. Being superman he recovered with a tremendous row and extension. He got great height but just barely made the bar. How many times have you heard the phrase " You were way over that but you hit it on the way down?". If he weren't celebrating a new record he would have walked over to his coach and asked "What happened?".

Comprare that vault with his vault on stabhoch.com at 6.11 meters. Which one would you like to duplicate?

doug