The Role of the Top Arm

[powerplant42]

If you use you are doing a giant swing or big tap swing and you 'sweep' at the cord, what happens? What about when you've just passed it?

[KirkB]

If you use you are doing a giant swing or big tap swing and you 'sweep' at the cord, what happens? What about when you've just passed it?

By the "chord" (note the proper spelling), I'm sure you mean directly below the highbar. There is no chord on the highbar.

To see how gymnasts do giants - with a "tap swing" at the bottom - use that incredible search button on YouTube. I'm sure you can find not only the search button, but also an elite gymnast doing a perfect giant.

Also, I think you may be trying to confuse a tap swing on the highbar with the downswing/upswing on the pole. Especially in magnitude, they're not the same thing. A giant tap swing is much more subtle (shorter duration).

I'm still waiting for you to get the hang of the hinge/whip drill, PP. [sigh]

I'm glad you finally got your highbar built, but now it's time to get serious ... with some real workouts!

And I know I'm a broken record on this, but really, you'll understand the importance of the downswing (and it's distinction from a tap swing) MUCH BETTER once you get the hang of it on the highbar.

Kirk

[powerplant42]

Yeah I used to say 'chord', then switched, but I finally looked it up and you're right.

Well... I'm sure that once again, I'm trying to say something and it is getting misinterpreted a bit. Let me make a video tomorrow and put it up. Then we can discuss.

[Robert schmitt]

arrgh, I had this well thought out response typed up and lost it. So here is well thought out but not so well remembered version...

4-5 years ago I was messing around trying to figure out the role to the top arm. I even PM'ed agapit a few times about it. His response was somthing to the effect on grips below 15' it will make you time up better but not on grips above 15'. So here is what I experienced intially when I focused on it I saw immediate positive effects I was running from 4 lefts gripping 13'3" on a 13'9" 190 and within 3-4 sessions saw my pb from that run go from 13'9" to 14'7". Also my pb from 3 lefts gripping 12'6" on a 13'3 185 went form 12'6" to 13'3". With these vaults I was feeling a sudden acceleration with my top hand in the intitial stages of the swing.

So I tried to focus on puishing that further into my swing I found that when your body get near or past the chord rowing kills your swing. So I went back to feeling like I would just "POP" the pole with my top hand at the initiation of my swing. Then I started to realized that the pop I was feeling wasn't really from me sweeping/rowing but from how much more force I was producing with my swing and the effect of that force had on the pole acting THROUGH my top arm. Focusing on the top hand is like a golfer trying to swing a club solely with their arms.

I think of the initiation of the swing and the power developed from it as a explosive contraction of a chain of muscles on the anterior of the body. Moments after take off and the pole hits the back of the box nearly your entire body goes into extension- your top arm at the shoulder is in extension, your thoracic and lumbar spine goes into extension, your takeoff leg at the hip is in extesion. that's what give the C shape or reverse C from the top hand to take off toe that some refer to
and the pre stretch of all the muscle groups that preform flexion of all of these joint that are put into extension from the take off and the pole contacting the back of the box. A dynamic force full swing comes from co-ordinated and symaltaneous contraction of all of these muscles at the INTIATION of the swing. You do FEEL a lot of power and or torque coming through you top arm and going into the pole. but it is not produced from simply rowing with the top hand.

To the observer it appears like the vaulter rowed with their top hand because the grip area of the pole accelerated froward as the force produced from the swing is transferred in to the pole.

I hope that is clear as mud now

[powerplant42]

Indeed! (You must be a 'sort of, but not really' voter!)

I'm sorry I didn't get video up today. I will do that though, I promise.

I have been thinking about the nature of the body coming out of pre-stretch. It would seem as if the vaulter can't really contract in a way that puts everything into the leg... Don't you think?

[KirkB]

... your top arm at the shoulder is in extension, your thoracic and lumbar spine goes into extension, your takeoff leg at the hip is in extesion. that's what give the C shape or reverse C from the top hand to take off toe that some refer to and the pre stretch of all the muscle groups that preform flexion of all of these joint that are put into extension from the take off and the pole contacting the back of the box. A dynamic force full swing comes from co-ordinated and symaltaneous contraction of all of these muscles at the INTIATION of the swing. You do FEEL a lot of power and or torque coming through you top arm and going into the pole. but it is not produced from simply rowing with the top hand.

This matches my experience too.

If I was to explain it any clearer, I'd have to attend a chiropractic college to learn all the names of the muscle groups. You got me beat there!

I've said that the trail leg INITIATES the swing, but I think it's just as correct to say that it's all of these muscle groups in unison. The difference is very subtle, and may even come down to vaulter's intent. Just because I THOUGHT about my trail leg initiating, I'm sure that my top arm began an equal and opposite action at almost the same time - it must have.

Kirk

p.s. PP ... Highbar!

[powerplant42]

p.s. PP ... Highbar!

I guess you haven't checked your email in the past hour or so!

[Robert schmitt]

I have been thinking about the nature of the body coming out of pre-stretch. It would seem as if the vaulter can't really contract in a way that puts everything into the leg... Don't you think?

some of it's going into the pole because it's the point of support and why I could feel it accelerate forward when I could swing dynamically...I focus on trying to create as much centripital force as I possibly can with my entire body....now since the leg and foot are the farthest distance from the fulcrum you will feel the effects of increased centripital force in them.

[powerplant42]

This is not to say that there should be no top arm work whatsoever... But without the bottom arm pull... you might be in trouble! Without accelerating the natural swing with the bottom arm, you can not hope to use the arm/chest muscles to help you to inversion.

No?

Here is the video of my experiment (plus some other footage). I 'sweep' (or try to) as I come to the vertical position. You should be able to tell the few times I do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyN915P_qNQ

[KirkB]

OK, you got the kip now - although you did muscle up a bit. Just like vaulting, you'll find that if you execute the TECHNIQUE of a kip correctly, it's as easy as pie. Well, OK, vaulting's not that easy. But what I mean is that the more your TECHNIQUE improves (kip or vault), the less "muscling up" you have to do. With "proper" technique, you simply swing upside down and extend! Amazing, eh?

Use the kip as a confidence builder. Realize how tough your first one was. Now do a few each day or two. Watch your progress. Realize that the more you SWING/SHOOT into your kip, the higher it raises your CoM. Then apply that idea to the vault. It's all about timing, and about applying the forces in the RIGHT direction at the RIGHT time! It's not about strength.

On your "sweep" demo, try this ...

At the top of your backswing, put your body into a "backwards C". Not an exagerated one, just a slight one. Don't bend your knees - that's cheating. Just arch your back. Continue with the two-legged swing for now. That's OK. Now once you get in the C, freeze in that position until your natural (frozen) swing gets you directly under the bar. Now, AS QUICK AS YOU CAN, change that "backwards C" to a "forwards C", and freeze again . Use both arms to "sweep" - as you call it. But also "sweep" with both legs.

So when you do that, what do you feel? Did you slow down or speed up? Why?

You can do the opposite as you swing back again. i.e. At the moment you're under the bar, change the "forwards C" to a "backwards C" and freeze. What happens? Why?

Don't try to equate this to exact actions during a vault. Let's save that for the hinge/whip drill - which this isn't. For now, I just want you to get the feel for the physics of this.

One more thing. Get on a playground swing - just like you saw Dave Butler's daughter do on here: http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16630&p=120183&hilit=2007+reno#p120183

This is really, really, basic, but try it anyway. On your backswing, what do you do? On your downswing, what do you do? And on your upswing? To go higher, what do you do? To slow down (go lower) what do you do?

Try it sitting down, but also try it standing up. Notice any difference in your technique? Why would that be?

Now, can you see how you might apply all this new-found knowledge to your pole vault swing?

Don't just IMAGINE how this might work. Try it on the playground swing! Then try it on a highbar! Then try it on the pole! I promise that you'll learn MORE if you actually TRY these experiments than if you just imagine what MIGHT happen.

These suggestions are not just for PP. If anyone else hasn't already done these expirements, give them a try! You may surprise yourself in discovering something new about the laws of physics and how your body actions can use them to your advantage!

Kirk

[rainbowgirl28]

This is not to say that there should be no top arm work whatsoever... But without the bottom arm pull... you might be in trouble! Without accelerating the natural swing with the bottom arm, you can not hope to use the arm/chest muscles to help you to inversion.

No?

Here is the video of my experiment (plus some other footage). I 'sweep' (or try to) as I come to the vertical position. You should be able to tell the few times I do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyN915P_qNQ

Hey quit tucking your legs on your swings!

[powerplant42]

Hey quit tucking your legs on your swings!

I am working on it!

KB: I appreciate your advice, but here it is just about the top arm. This thread is not about me! (PM/e-mail me...)

I will try the experiments you mentioned and post the results in the 'swing' thread if it ever becomes unlocked.

Did anyone notice the way I went up instead of out when I swept? This is not a perfect experiment, I realize, but it demonstrates that if you 'sweep'/'row' out of the pre-stretch you will end up raising your COM up behind the pole.

Now the question becomes... When is the time to 'sweep'/'pull'? I hope you are reading this agapit!

These are my thoughts:

The vaulter completes the downswing and comes to the chord. The 6.40 model says the inversion begins here (though the goal is to become inverted instantaneously), so this is the point where there begins to be (top) arm work involved... I will not go further, because I might have already dug myself a hole!

Agapit, please come back!!! We are crawling in the dark! We need some !