The One-Arm Drill

A forum to discuss overall training techniques, nutrition, injuries, etc. Discussion of actual pole vault technique should go in the Technique forum.

One-Arm Drill: YAY or NAY

Love 'em.
2
6%
Like them.
8
26%
Don't care.
7
23%
Dislike them.
6
19%
Hate 'em.
8
26%
 
Total votes: 31

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KirkB
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Re: The One-Arm Drill

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:52 pm

altius wrote: Its early morning here and I am just getting over a viral infection so you may find this a bit snappy - I wont apologise, for I know that as you are all experts, you will appreciate that this is just friendly banter.

Altius, it is a bit snappy ... no apologies necessary ... but in the interest of friendly banter, I doubt very much if it's due to your infection. :D

altius wrote: ... a problem with Vtechs technique ... he was positioning his left hand incorrectly so that it did not allow him to drive the chest through his shoulders and finish the take off drive.

100% :yes:

altius wrote: ... who does Dave [Butler] base all of his material and ideas on?? Vitali Petrov. ...

I think the point was that there's more than one "expert" PV coach in the world. We cannot and should not all be blind sheep, following every mistranslated :) word of Petrov's. We should keep our eyes open, and glean good coaching tips from ALL the PV experts in the world ... including youself, Alan!

altius wrote: ... Apparently it is not valid to use Petrovs ideas as a model but it is ok to use Pat Licari's ...

Petrov and Licari's ideas are not 100% mutually exclusive, so I know you were just bantering about the comparison. Pat himself follows the Petrov model fairly closely ... you will not see that ENTIRELY with Brad Walker ... but more so with his other vaulters. :yes:

altius wrote: ... I like Beccas idea of categories for folk posting on this board -we may then get some idea of the experience and qualifications of all involved ...

:yes: Please fill yours in ... not that we don't already know!

Kirk
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Re: The One-Arm Drill

Unread postby VTechVaulter » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:47 pm

altius wrote:Vtech old son - Could the emphasis on the one arm drill in your training be the reason that your arm bottom arm was incorrectly positioned when you jumped in Reno???????


Folk could not have understood my last post because it was a direct reference to a problem with Vtechs technique that I discussed with him in Reno - he was positioning his left hand incorrectly so that it did not allow him to drive the chest through his shoulders and finish the take off drive. I simply suggested above that this had occurred because he was not learning to use the left arm properly - perhaps because of an overemphasis on one arm drills.


Altius knows he has my full support in using me as an example for things good or bad. over the past year or so altius has become a friend and confidant, and I always enjoy bouncing new videos and ideas of him.

the specific problem mentioned here is that over the course of the run my left hand would drop too much and not be in a position to make effective use of the left arm and chest drive. it is actually something that coach phillips here at VT is also always trying to correct with me as well.

So seeing as the point of me performing this drill is to warm up the shoulders, emphasize pre-jump, and work on chest drive... would i be better served to do this as a 2 arm, 6 step straight pole drill.. lets here thoughts on this.
Brian Mondschein
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www.phillyjumpsclub.com

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altius
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Re: The One-Arm Drill

Unread postby altius » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:49 pm

Sorry Kirk B I tried to respond to your query and deal with the issue of watching and discussing with, other coaches but it has been censored for some reason. I hope it turns up for otherwise I must censor myself.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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rainbowgirl28
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Re: The One-Arm Drill

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:19 am

altius wrote:Sorry Kirk B I tried to respond to your query and deal with the issue of watching and discussing with, other coaches but it has been censored for some reason. I hope it turns up for otherwise I must censor myself.


No posts have been censored. Maybe there was an error when you tried to post it and it didn't go through.

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KirkB
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Re: The One-Arm Drill

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:35 am

I posted my original reply over 2 hours ago. Since then, I have not made any edits.

I"m looking forward to more friendly banter! :yes:

Kirk
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Re: The One-Arm Drill

Unread postby altius » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:59 am

"So seeing as the point of me performing this drill is to warm up the shoulders, emphasize pre-jump, and work on chest drive... would i be better served to do this as a 2 arm, 6 step straight pole drill.. lets here thoughts on this."

Yes indeed - However you MUST keep the left hand high, hand under the pole with the left elbow below and outside the hand. That relationship must be maintained all the way up until the pole is positioned in the box.- where the elbow must remain outside of the line of the pole. This puts in a relatively weak position such that when the pole tip hits- the pole drives the left arm back out of the way to the left so clearing room for the chest to come through and complete the take off drive and set up the whip swing. Both sequences on P 52 of BTB2 show this clearly. A simple cue is to always think of looking through the window created between the pole and the left arm. Reread the plant chapter in BTB2 -it is all there.

If the bottom hand is over the top of the pole during the run and plant -a very common fault - almost invariably as the left hand goes up the elbow rotates under - the arm will straighten and be in a position to lock out immediately in front of the vaulters face.. This not only stops the drive of the chest but changes to point of rotation of the swing.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: The One-Arm Drill

Unread postby altius » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:38 am

"Please fill yours in ... not that we don't already know!"
In fact I doubt you do - certainly the young guns who join this great site every month have no idea. This is for their benefit. The problem is how do you keep the system democratic where everyone's opinion - prince or pauper - has the same value? While I do believe in democracy and freedom of speech I have a sneaking feeling that while all animals are equal, some are indeed more equal than others. This is why Beccas notion is good because us old greybeards may find their posts being read a bit more carefully than is sometimes the case.

Someone, perhaps you, KirkB, made the point that one has to consider other ideas -that perhaps Petrov is not the great messiah of pole vaulting. True indeed, so consider the folk I have spent time with over the past twenty years.
1979 Tom McNab London, One week British Jumps coach. Been a friend since 1960.
1979 Maurice Houvion, Two weeks Paris, Huge squad of international jumpers including Vigneron WR
1979 Anton Krupsky. Two weeks Leverkusen. German National coach
1979 Anje Krysinski Two weeks Warsaw. His two Olympic champions training there at the time.
1984 Olympic Games LA - met all kind of folk.
1986 Vitali Petrov - Have met him repeatedly in Formia, Adelaide, Canberra, Seville since that time. Sat with him through the 92 final.
1990.Dr. Jean Claude Perin. One week. Paris. Coach of 84 Champion Quinon among others. Attended a lecture by Houvion on the same visit.
1991. Roman Botcharnikov. 14 months. Very expensive -ate all our food and wrecked our car -previous driving experience was a T72 tank - but he didnt tell me that. We worked together all that time and have met several times since, including France last january. I hope this does not start a debate about who coached who but it seems LOJO gives him credit.
1996. Alex Parnov. I brought Alex to OZ. He lived with me for three months and I was able watch him work with Markov, Chystiakov and Grigorieva for two years. Coached a world Champion and an Olympic champion and the only coach - that I know of -who has had three 6m vaulters. Also his two daughters to world age records -including Vickie 4.40 at 16.
Mark Stewart. OZ for nearly 30 years we have interacted. He took Emma George to a WR and first 15' jump by a woman, coached Hooker from beginner to 5.92 and one of his squad, 18 year old Blake Lucas has Just won the OZ vault with 5.45.
2005? Rick Baggett. have seen Rick twice a year since then. Has never told me who he has coached but you only have to watch him to see he is a great coach
Then there is
Larry Berry Hill- Visited Provo three times and he came to Adelaide once. Very successful coach at BYU =several NCAA medalists
Jeremy Bailey. Just retired as BYU coach. Been in contact with him for five years or more/ Coached Robbie pratt to NCAA title.
Came with me to Formia in October 06. And his dad Larren when I did a clinic in Nampa.
At various times I have worked and learned from a whole list of guys
Kris Allison in San Antonio. Produces hordes of good vaulters. Had the good sense -which I would not have had -to leave Jason alone.
Bubba Sparks in The Woodlands. THE great enthusiast for the pole vault. Still trying to master the Petrov model at age 85.
Todd Cooper. Excelsior Springs. Many camps with Todd in past five years, where he has a great facility. Yet another really experienced vaulter and coach. A truly goodolboy!
Rusty Shealy. Columbia -a one week camp and I learned all I needed to know about this guy. Good coach who will always be successful. Could sell anything to anybody.
DJ. at the same camp. He obviously has vast experience. Unfortunately he thinks I am a Russian secret agent sent to the US to sabotage your vault program.
Joel Flores, Hawaii worked with him twice -another great enthusiast .met Tom Hinthaus there and debated the question whether others can jump like Bubka. He thinks not so we agreed to disagree.
Daniel Isaacs. Boone NC. Daniel will be upset to be mentioned in this company but he is doing a great job in difficult circumstances and asks very good questions! keeps me on my toes. However sometimes I think he'd rather be out shooting raccoons.
Daniel Bertolami. Pleasant Harbour NJ> Same as t'other daniel. Has immense enthusiasm -re energised me to be around him.

You have got to learn something from interacting with serious folk like this -
I could say I have learned something from Sean Brown - but I havent. He is just my table tennis Patsy!

Must not forget Steve Rippon who I have known since he began his coaching career in OZ in 1985 . Had great success and is now repeating that in Britain, See him regularly - was at Loughborough a few weeks ago and we are planning a dvd on high level training. I still suspect I have forgotten some folk -for which I apologise because they have all contributed something, Bubka himself -who I have discussed the vault on three separate occasions - dont want to forget him

So having considered all of these inputs I believe that the Petrov Bubka model is the best technical model for any athlete because it is biomechanically sound and can be mastered by average athletes -if the coach knows what they are doing. Too many american coaches have not accepted this - some because their ego wont let them, some because they are still locked into the ideas generated when flexible poles first arrived -some because of the strange idea that it is unAmerican to take up the model. They clearly have never heard the advice "If your opponent has a good idea, steal it". ;) Fortunately for me I will not have to deal with any of them on the next trip - that is unless Dean Starkey and Tim McMichael decide to play hard ball when we meet.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: The One-Arm Drill

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:59 am

Nice bio! :yes:

altius wrote: 2005? Rick Baggett. have seen Rick twice a year since then. Has never told me who he has coached but you only have to watch him to see he is a great coach

... or watch his vaulters! :yes: Pat Licari ... Tommy Skipper ... Kate Soma ... Donna Shultz (Kate's mother and Masters WR holder http://masterstrack.com/blog/002137.html) ...

Interesting that Pat was coached by a Petrovian disciple, eh? ;)

Kirk
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Re: The One-Arm Drill

Unread postby powerplant42 » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:17 am

How many people have seen the Petrov speech at Reno?

...........

Then you should remember the integral part he claims the bottom arm plays pre-take-off! (STRAIGHT, MOVING THE POLE, THEN BENDS OUT! He demos it himself!) :dazed:
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka

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Re: The One-Arm Drill

Unread postby altius » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:21 pm

PP42 -Just take a look at every image of Bubka at take off in BTB2. In every case the left elbow is pointed out to the left and the left arm is slightly flexed ready to "disengage", as the Germans say. Think about this also. The right arm has to be as high straight and strong as possible -agreed? Well if the left arm were completely straight and strong at that point - where whoud the pole tip be? Then again if the left arm is absolutely straight at the instant the pole tip hits the box, there can be no free take off because the left arm immediately begins to transfer the kinetic energy of the run and take off into potential energy in the pole - the pole begins to bend -too early.

I suspect the point Petrov was making in that this is not a passive movement by the left arm. It is a powerful punch as both arms drive the pole up and forward - ""to move the pole always"". So the left arm drives up but in a way that does not immediately transfer energy into the pole.

One page 238 of BTB2. I write," "Where both hands are driven up as hard and as high as possible. The athlete should have the feeling that this high punch continues after take off" Then on Page 240, continuing to describe aspects of the take off, I write, "Where the lower hand and arm are carefully positioned at the instant the pole tip hits the back of the box. This allows the bottom arm to initially hit the pole and then to dynamically relax as the top arm loads the pole. This is one of the more subtle but vital elements of this technical model."" The photos of Annika Becker of Germany = coached by a Petrovite and of Markov on that page show this as do those of Isinbyeva p250, Feofanova283 , Tarasov P284, Gibilisco 251. The interesting photo is Brits p277 which clearly shows why he did not fulfil his potential.

I have nothing further to add to this topic. If you want more discussion PP.42 leave it until the summer. Anybody else can read the book! ;) And PP42 I hope you are taking on board the wisdom in the quote below!!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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altius
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Re: The One-Arm Drill

Unread postby altius » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:27 pm

Conclusion - To master this subtle positioning I believe the left arm should always be in contact with the pole during drills -ergo - no one arm drills.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: The One-Arm Drill

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:05 pm

altius wrote: ... if the left arm is absolutely straight at the instant the pole tip hits the box, there can be no free take off because the left arm immediately begins to transfer the kinetic energy of the run and take off into potential energy in the pole - the pole begins to bend -too early.

I never thought of it that way before ... but you're right ... it's not only the arguments that I've consistently given re pushing with the bottom arm being "bad" ... it's also ... as you point out here ... that it makes the pole bend TOO EARLY!

What this means to me is that the takeoff isn't "finished", and the chest drive into the pole (which exerts even more energy into the pole thru the top hand) is lost. This chest drive is viewed by some people as a negative ... they say their bottom arm is COLLAPSING, and want to know how to fix that. Actually, the collapsing of the bottom arm allows you to retain a good, upright body posture ... far better than what happens when you press with your bottom arm. Pressing leads to lack of chest drive ... which leads to poor body posture ... which leads to a poor downswing.

If your arm collapses and then pops back out as the pole bends (from top-hand pressure), then there's no problem. If it collapses and STAYS collapsed, THEN you have a problem. You fix that problem by making your top arm more rigid in its connection between the pole and your torso. Don't misinterpret this. To let the chest drive forwards, you MUST let the top arm go back (above and behind your head). But the moment AFTER the pole hits the box, your top arm and torso need to be "tight" with the pole. The possible misinterpretation here is that you try to tighten your pecs, deltoids, and triceps TOO EARLY! You need to get into that elastic, STRETCHED body posture FIRST!

altius wrote: ... "Where both hands are driven up as hard and as high as possible. The athlete should have the feeling that this high punch continues after take off" ... "Where the lower hand and arm are carefully positioned at the instant the pole tip hits the back of the box. This allows the bottom arm to initially hit the pole and then to dynamically relax as the top arm loads the pole. This is one of the more subtle but vital elements of this technical model.""...

:yes:

altius wrote: ... I hope you are taking on board the wisdom in the quote below!!

I have no comments on the One-Arm Drill per se, as I don't think I ever did that. Not that it's bad ... I just never tried it.

I like to talk about those aspects of pole vaulting that I have personal experience with. PP, those are the areas that I can provide meaningful insight. ;)

Sorry, I'm a little off topic according to the title of this thread and the name of this forum. We should be focussing on the TRAINING in preparation for these vault parts, whereas I'm describing the target TECHNIQUE during these parts. But if you don't know what technique you're striving for, how do you know how to train for it?

Kirk
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