Non-Petrovers

[jam354]

As I read more and more about the Petrov model, it gets me thinking about the world class vaulters who don't use the model. What would someone like Jeff Hartwig or Derek Miles response be to someone saying that their vaulting style is incorrect. I know Altius mentions Hartwig in B2B, but is it that it is just too late to change for them or they not agree with the Petrov model?

[charlie]

Let me share with you a FACT!! When Bubka won his last world championship with a HUGE clearance, which most claim was a 21' jump;There was an American vaulter named Dean Starkey who got 3rd at 19'4". Let me tell you what you can do-- Put both vaulters side by side and they are carbon copys-except Bubka was a little bit faster THRU, not UP the take off ,and held higher and was on a lrger pole. Video doesn't lie. Dean is the only American that I have seen with the same technique as Bubka. They BOTH (inthe inversion faze) Pass THRU the L position at the same time they are bressing the pole back out and DO NOT TUCK!!!! They BOTH get blowed up off the end. I call it the bow and arrow effect. If a person has enough guts to get COMPLETELY inverted with the pole still bent, they will get a hell of a ride!!! Coach Charlie 2 Time Masters World Champion. PS Got 30 hs & ms vaulters at my private facility. Sure would like to get ahold of a 19' vaulter, because there is no doubt I could make him a 20'er

[KirkB]

... Video doesn't lie. Dean is the only American that I have seen with the same technique as Bubka. They BOTH (inthe inversion faze) Pass THRU the L position at the same time they are pressing the pole back out and DO NOT TUCK!!!! They BOTH get blowed up off the end. I call it the bow and arrow effect. If a person has enough guts to get COMPLETELY inverted with the pole still bent, they will get a hell of a ride!!! ...

Nice call, Charlie! THERE IS NO TUCK!

Here's Dean Starkey over 19-0 ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbSRi2ZooVE



Kirk

[master]

At least on this vault, it doesn't look to me like he got completely inverted while it was still bent.

I realize this is off topic, but looks like he Volzed the bar. Also of interest is how much he chopped his penultimate step and still made that vault.

- master

[KirkB]

Still not answering Jam's question, but I noticed Starkey's stutter step on that vault too, and thought it a bit weird. I've never seen his vids before, so in checking his 5.91 (19-4.75) jump in 1997, I see that the stutter step is gone ... and so is the Volz!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe_3_HiBMtU

There's a nice bar-cam on this one ... in the 1997 World Championships. You've all seen the same bar-cam of Bubka's 6.01 that day ... on Altius' avatar.

I also think that Toby Stevenson is quite close to pure Petrov. The key is the lack of tuck. Here's his 6.00m jump ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faowViQMPWc

The only unconvential style I see is his lead knee drive (which I think has merit, and isn't anti-Petrov ... it's just a style variant).

I don't think he's pushing with his bottom arm ... but he might be ... a little. I think if you push (block out), it's inevitable that you must tuck to catch up to the pole. There's not even a trace of a tuck in Toby's 6.00 vault, so it's gotta be Petrov.

Kirk

[altius]

We must be looking at different film clips!!! At least in the clips shown here Dean's technique was not remotely the same as Bubka and Tobys is not much better. Just look at Dean's forward lean on the run way, his right hand way behind the body during the approach - with the left hand next to the right side and over the top of the pole - he never got ahead of the pole as he inverted and is obviously sliding past it quite early. If Dean had employed the Petrov/Bubka model there is little doubt he could have jumped 6.10 because he was at least as good an athlete as Bubka - Sergey thought so anyway!!

Toby's right leg action was not 'style', it was a fault. Slowed his rotation so he could never get on top of the pole without tucking - which the film clearly shows that he does -tuck I mean!

I would also suggest that if anyone knows an easy way to move a 19' jumper up to 20' I would like to know all about it! I suspect it is easier said than done.

[KirkB]

... Dean's technique was not remotely the same as Bubka ... and Toby's right leg action was not 'style', it was a fault. Slowed his rotation so he could never get on top of the pole without tucking - which the film clearly shows that he does -tuck I mean!

Well, I'm not going to argue with someone with 16 times more coaching experience than myself ... ... much ... ... but I think the difference in our interpretations is mostly due to our disparate opinions of how far we think a vaulter can deviate from pure Petrov without becoming non-Petrov. And I'll automatically take your opinion on this over mine, since you've STUDIED Petrov so much more ... I just VAULTED that way.

In Starkey's case, I didn't like the way he carried the pole either. Just as you say, his top arm was too far back, and it seemed to cause some balance problems in his run and plant.

As I mentioned, I thought (and still think) that the key differentiator between Petrov and non-Petrov is whether the vaulter passes thru the "flat back" position quickly (or not), and whether they tuck (or not) there. In both Starkey and Stevenson's vaults, I didn't see that. I'll have to take a closer look, as I accept your definition of the Petrov Model more than my own.

To me, Starkey's pole carry flaws don't mean that he's not following Petrov. They just mean that he's not that perfect in his Petrov technique.

I'm also happy to agree to disagree re Stevenson's lead knee drive. You say tomatoe, I say tomAto. No problem. I'll have to take a closer look, to see if he's killing his swing, or if he's penetrating better by moving his CoM closer to the bar. I thought the latter, but have yet to look at any slo-mo. I'm more wondering if he's pushing with his bottom arm or not ... and to me ... that's the killer. If he's pushing (blocking at all), it's not Petrov.

STILL not answering Jam's question, but I'll put it a different way ...

Can anyone name (and show vid) of an American elite vaulter (5.80+, let's say ... or heck, maybe even 5.60+ or 5.70+) that's closer to the Petrov Model than Starkey or Stevenson?

Brian? Who else?

Kirk

[jam354]

It would be interested in who of the elite Americans are attempting the Petrov model and the reasons why some are not.

Also, I thought diffferences or flaws can be considered style. Markov had a pretty pronounced tuck but was in the video for the Petrov Model. I realize it was to emphasize the free takeoff.

I got to think that someone like Derek Miles knows about all of the different models but at some point made the decision to stick with what he does and perfect it as much as possible.

I'm sure Starkey and Stevenson are Petrov followers, but have different things they do to compensate for their flaws or because they picked up bad habits that are too tough to break.

[powerplant42]

What would someone like Jeff Hartwig or Derek Miles response be to someone saying that their vaulting style is incorrect.

If they agreed to try and fix it, I think it might be like trying to fix Charles Barkely's golf swing (funny show BTW)... multiplied by ten! Possible over a decade, but only with super intense training under a premier coach... I say it would be multiplied by ten because of the SPEED involved... The brain doesn't have TIME to focus... No?

[ACvault]

If they agreed to try and fix it, I think it might be like trying to fix Charles Barkely's golf swing (funny show BTW)... multiplied by ten! Possible over a decade, but only with super intense training under a premier coach... I say it would be multiplied by ten because of the SPEED involved... The brain doesn't have TIME to focus... No?

No offense, but frankly I think you are unnecessarily over exaggerating here. Both Hartwig and Miles are excellent jumpers with years of knowledge and experience beyond a high school jumper. Just because they may not implement the Petrov model, it does not mean they do not have the ability to do so. I am fully aware of how difficult it is to implement even parts of this technical model, but there is a reason Hartwig and Miles have gone 19+, they have had the dedication and tenacity through years of training to master whatever technical model they use.

[jam354]

I agree AC. Hartwig and Miles have a ton of knowledge and dedication to the sport and they've obviously done pretty well. My basic question is what would their answer be to the question, "Why aren't you following the Petrov Model?" Would it be, "I'm trying to..." or "It's too late to change", or "I don't agree with it."

I would think it is "it's too late to change."

[powerplant42]

I would think it is "it's too late to change."

Same... A tuck or a double-leg swing or anything else BIG would be nearly impossible to fix (and in the process, the athlete would probably notice a considerable drop in performance at meets and lose their money)! It's probably possible, but just not plausible. I know that Miles, Hartwig, or ANYONE jumping that high doesn't just pick up a pole one day and do so... But muscle memory wins out over work ethic in the short term... That's 10,000 new hours to put in to correcting, maybe even more!