Weight Room

[altius]

"or you can do what i did and start dating a gymanst who can let you in to use the highbar whenever you want"

Now there speaks an oxymoron - an intelligent pole vaulter!

[vcpvcoach]

"On the basis of that statement I would suggest that you have never been down under as we have major problems with weather in all of our cities - even it in some cases the problem is with temperatures above 45 degrees! ! And just for information - we dont have a single indoor training facility for the vault in Australia -unless you count a runway down the side of an indoor swimming pool in Perth. I coached in Kentucky for six years so I know a little about weather in the US. Having coached Div 1 All Americans in the Long Jump, Discus and Shot there, I also fully understand the importance of speed and power in track and field - but in the vault, technique must be built first last and always - even if it is through simple walking plant drills and exercises to learn how to carry the pole correctly - both major weaknesses with the young athletes I see in the USA. However my point stands - the weight room is often used as a cop out for ignorance of the vault"

Altius, 45 degrees. Is that celsius? Just kidding. On days it 35 and above without snow, our athletes are out doing drills on the track. Lucky for us, the ground wasn't frozen so yesterday the snow melted on the track and runway. We got in a full technique day with weight room after.

As to your point on pole carry, you are absolutely right about how poor American vaulters carry the pole. And, don't get me started about pole drop. My first year vaulters spend 90% of their technique workouts on pole carry and run.

To the point of this thread, all vaulters should be in the weight room as part of his over all training routine. That routine should also have run conditioning, and a liberal dose of technique combined with gymnastic training. Skip any part of your training and you will not meet your potential as a vaulter.

[chasing6]

For anyone interested the weight lifting system we use if called Bigger, Faster, Stronger. Go to http://www.biggerfasterstronger.com for more info.

From my personal experience working with BFS, I feel that it is more geared toward football/basketball than it is toward vaulting. When I was on the program back in HS (9-11th grade) I was buff and very strong for my weight, but it wasn't until I stopped using BFS that I saw my 100 time and runway speed (and subsequently my vaulting) improve. These days I use a more gymnastic/body weight approach to strength training, and although I can't squat 425 or clean 230 I feel I'm much better equipped for vaulting.

(Note: I only recently started working with actual gymnastic equipment, all you need is a chin-up bar with high enough ceilings that you won't kick out the lights when inverted.)

[powerplant42]

I think this would have been better to put in a thread from a while ago, but I think it works here:

http://www.stabhoch.com/epvc/petrov_plan.pdf

You will not find much on lifting in there...

Can anyone translate the German in the last few pages?

[EIUvltr]

Sigh, it looks like I need to come out of retirement again.

Original poster,

A lot of what has been said to you is fluff. The amount of time you are in the weightroom, and what you do in the weightroom is very dependent upon where in the year you are in training (you wouldn't be doing the same thing in May as you would in August). It is also highly dependent upon your current physique, workload capacity, how good of a vaulter you are, etc.

If I was coaching someone who was just starting out in the pole vault, I would have them spend the vast majority of their time pole vaulting, doing form work, and working on running mechanics. If I had a 16-17 year old kid who had decent form and mechanics, THEN I would start to emphasize the weight room more in his/her training. If I was coaching a 22 year old guy who was vaulting 5.20+ then I would probably have a very detailed and individualized training plan with different phases that could last up to a year (Macrocycle) or even 4 years (olympiad) if it was needed.

SO, the big question is where are you in your training? The human body can only perform a limited amount of work per unit time before overtraining occurs, so what you need to do is self-scrutinize and figure out where your weak points are. If your form sucks, then work on your form. If your running mechanics suck, work on your running mechanics. If your form is decent and your running mechanics are also decent, then it may be time to incorporate some more lifting in your training. The rest of this post will assume the ladder is the case.

Ok, sometimes I see posts on here about Periodization where people essentially get it all wrong, then made decisions off of their incorrect conclusions. The reason periodization got so popular in the Eastern Bloc back in the 60s was because coaches and athletes realized that progressive overload (adding more weight every time you lift) only works for so long before overtraining/detraining occurs. HOWEVER, without delving into the intricasies of periodization for you all, let me just tell you that 99% of you don't need to worry about it because you are nowhere near the level of training that requires it! The vast majority of your bodies can recover from the work you expose it to on a week-to-week basis. This means that you can probably just do the same thing every week and add weight as needed without worrying about cycling low, medium, and high intensity weeks and all that jazz. And if you are overtraining, its more likely due to poor nutrition, lack of sleep, alcohol, stress, etc.

I'm not going to write you up a weeklong workout plan because I don't know enough about you to do it. But I will tell you some things to think about.

1) You should definitely take at least 48-72 hours rest before you train the same body part again. I prefer at least 72 hours myself. This means if you bench Monday, you probably shouldn't bench again til at least Thursday. And if your chest is still sore from Monday, then DONT BENCH! It's that simple. If your body is still recovering from a previous bout of exercise, then why would you hamper that by exposing it to a subpar lifting session that will only prolong recovery. Sounds like overtraining to me.

2) A pole vaulter doesn't need to "gain mass." We are not bodybuilders, nor are we Offensive Linemen. What matters in the pole vault is your strength relative to your body weight. So instead of lifting for hypertrophy, we should be lifting for maximum motor unit recruitment. This means low reps, high weight. How low is dependent upon your level of training. I would never have a 90lbs. freshman in high school do 1RMs. It is dangerous and ineffective. I would probably have them lift more in the 3-5 rep range.

*Exception to the rule* In the offseason and preseason I would actually have my athletes lift primarily in the higher rep ranges (8-15ish). This is because the higher rep ranges are the best for strengthening connective tissue, tendons, etc. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and if you start blasting your muscles before you allow your tendons and bones to prepare for a large workload, well then you'll be one of those people who know their athletic trainers really well.

3) Don't overthink your lifts. Stick to the basics. Squats, Bench, Deadlifts (Using a Trap-bar is okay), Rows, Pull-ups, Romanian Dead lifts, Glut-hams, Reverse hyper extensions, and maybe bulgarian split squats are all you'll ever need. The Squats, Bench and Deadlifts are your "Max Effort" lifts, meaning the ones you go really heavy on for low reps. The rest of the lifts are better suited for higher reps (anywhere from 6-15). You don't need to do like 8 sets tho, 1-3 will do, remember we are NOT bodybuilders.

Also, don't try to make your lifts "sport specific." Weight lifting is non-specific training. Don't think that cuz you're doing pull-ups with a cross grip (ITS MORE LIKE THE POLE VAULT! OMG!) that your PR is going to skyrocket. Your goal in the weightroom is to get stronger, then you make use of that strength on the track.

You may notice that I did not include any olympic lifts (cleans, snatches) in my list. This was not accidental. Olympic lifting is a sport like any other sport, it takes YEARS to learn correct technique, so why are we trying to get our pole vaulters to learn a different sport at the same time we are teaching them something as difficult as the pole vault? There are other ways to achieve the athletic characteristics that elite Olympic lifters have. Bounding, Depth jumps, Kettlebell work, medball work, PUD work. And these are MUCH MUCH easier to teach/learn than the clean and jerk. Soccer players have great endurance, should we teach our Cross Country runners soccer? I don't think so.

4) How trained are you? Don't think that you need to do all those lifts I wrote down. If you are just starting out, then a couple sets on bench, a couple sets of rows, and a couple sets of squats are probably all you'll need for a whole week. The stronger you get, the more work your body will require to adapt. You can do this multiple ways: Adding weight, adding lifts, adding sets, increasing frequency (lift twice a week instead of once), etc. You or a qualified coach will have to be the judge on whether you are ready for these things or not.










I cannot tell you whether you should be lifting once a week or 4 times a week. I cant tell you what lifts you should do or how many reps, nor can anyone on this forum. When someone replies to your post saying "Well we do this, Bench 3x10, Squat 4x....," remember that they are not you. Also they might not even be doing it right anyway. You need to do figure out what is going to work best for you.

[VaultMarq26]

i've been waiting for you to comment on this....welcome back.

[decanuck]

without delving into the intricasies of periodization for you all, let me just tell you that 99% of you don't need to worry about it because you are nowhere near the level of training that requires it!

While I agree that week-to-week tinkering of weightlifting plans to the end of synchronizing training with shorter-term biorhythms is excessive to the point of splitting hairs for those whose bodies are not long-adapted to such training, I disagree with the notion that periodizing on a macro level cannot be valuable to everyone who picks up a weight (not that that's what you're suggesting) if for no other reason that different body systems are best trained in different ways at different times. As you said yourself, a pre- and early-season period of higher rep lifts (and presumably a more diverse selection of multi-plane movements) builds strength endurance, causes hypertrophy and strengthens connective tissue, all of which prepares the body for the higher intensity lifting to come. Why not transition from this phase through to the very low-rep, high-intensity movements of the pre-competitive and phase competitive phases with a more gradual progression?

The vast majority of your bodies can recover from the work you expose it to on a week-to-week basis. This means that you can probably just do the same thing every week and add weight as needed without worrying about cycling low, medium, and high intensity weeks and all that jazz.

Surely the benefit of cycling at least movements, if not reps, intensity, or other factors, is not just to avoid over-training, but also to avoid the plateaus caused by adaptation to said movements, reps, intensities, etc. One ought not have the same weekly workout plan through the whole season.

And if you are overtraining, its more likely due to poor nutrition, lack of sleep, alcohol, stress, etc.

Strongly agreed (provided the training program is well-designed) and to that end I relay the axiom offered by my coach when any of his athletes complained of excessive soreness and discomfort: 99% of athletes don't over-train, they under-recover. Working hard at your training does not end when you leave practice, it includes all the hydration, nutrition, rest, stretching/massage, ice baths, etc. that supports, facilitates, and maximizes what's done at the track or in the weight room.

Also, don't try to make your lifts "sport specific." Weight lifting is non-specific training. Don't think that cuz you're doing pull-ups with a cross grip (ITS MORE LIKE THE POLE VAULT! OMG!) that your PR is going to skyrocket. Your goal in the weightroom is to get stronger, then you make use of that strength on the track.

Does not the specificity of a movement essentially comprise its functional value? For example, vaulting requires quad strength. Leg extensions are one way to build quad strength. Is the leg extension a good choice, or is there a better (and more functionally relevant/specific) movement available. To that end...

You may notice that I did not include any olympic lifts (cleans, snatches) in my list. This was not accidental. Olympic lifting is a sport like any other sport, it takes YEARS to learn correct technique, so why are we trying to get our pole vaulters to learn a different sport at the same time we are teaching them something as difficult as the pole vault? There are other ways to achieve the athletic characteristics that elite Olympic lifters have. Bounding, Depth jumps, Kettlebell work, medball work, PUD work. And these are MUCH MUCH easier to teach/learn than the clean and jerk. Soccer players have great endurance, should we teach our Cross Country runners soccer? I don't think so.

A very interesting analogy which well illustrates the point that just because a group of people possess a quality you desire does not mean you ought to train like them to achieve it. However I think that the obverse question that should be asked is: should soccer players run cross country?

Put another way, I think that O-lifting is a phenomenal if not the definitive method to both build strength and learn its functional application and it is for that reason that O-lifters have incredible power, high verts, etc. I disagree that it takes years to learn correct technique--masterful, sure, but not correct. And the aspiring vaulter need not squat snatch bodyweight and squat clean and jerk 1.5x bodyweight in order to get huge benefit from O-lifts--derivative movements at lighter weights are very valuable. You can build incredible power without ever actually performing the competition lifts by doing clean pulls, hang power cleans, hang power snatches, push jerks and others. And at the risk of belabouring my earlier point about functionality and its relation to specificity, I would argue that O-lift derivatives are much closer to track and field movements than power lifts and therefore more effective. Not that I would ever cut out the latter completely--as you said, they are excellent for building foundational strength.

One last point...because of their functional relevance I think that O-lifts, in spite of their technical challenges, actually have spillover technical benefits as a side-effect. I, for one, could never come close to potentiating my hip movements when throwing until I learned to do so when doing hang cleans, which also improved my hip movement in running and jumping as well.

[EIUvltr]

Decanuk,

While I agree that week-to-week tinkering of weightlifting plans to the end of synchronizing training with shorter-term biorhythms is excessive to the point of splitting hairs for those whose bodies are not long-adapted to such training, I disagree with the notion that periodizing on a macro level cannot be valuable to everyone who picks up a weight (not that that's what you're suggesting) if for no other reason that different body systems are best trained in different ways at different times. As you said yourself, a pre- and early-season period of higher rep lifts (and presumably a more diverse selection of multi-plane movements) builds strength endurance, causes hypertrophy and strengthens connective tissue, all of which prepares the body for the higher intensity lifting to come. Why not transition from this phase through to the very low-rep, high-intensity movements of the pre-competitive and phase competitive phases with a more gradual progression?

You are absolutely correct. I was implying that the majority of athletes do not need periodization to prevent overtraining. NOT that they don't need to perform different types of exercises throughout the year depending on what skills are important at a given time. Most high school kids and a lot of college athletes don't have to worry about when they are going to "peak" since their bodies are not so fine-tuned and susceptible to overtraining as a professional.

Surely the benefit of cycling at least movements, if not reps, intensity, or other factors, is not just to avoid over-training, but also to avoid the plateaus caused by adaptation to said movements, reps, intensities, etc. One ought not have the same weekly workout plan through the whole season.

This is what I was getting at. Most athletes on these forums, truly will not hit plateaus if they are lifting correctly and not slacking in the weight room, at least not for a few months. If someone is hitting plateaus, then they are more highly trained than the group of vaulters I wrote this post for. When I used the term "cycling" I was referring to the amount of workload an athlete undergoes on a week-to-week basis (periodization). I completely agree that the amount of reps, sets, and the exercises themselves should be changed overtime.

:yes: Strongly agreed (provided the training program is well-designed) and to that end I relay the axiom offered by my coach when any of his athletes complained of excessive soreness and discomfort: 99% of athletes don't over-train, they under-recover. Working hard at your training does not end when you leave practice, it includes all the hydration, nutrition, rest, stretching/massage, ice baths, etc. that supports, facilitates, and maximizes what's done at the track or in the weight room.

ditto.

Does not the specificity of a movement essentially comprise its functional value? For example, vaulting requires quad strength. Leg extensions are one way to build quad strength. Is the leg extension a good choice, or is there a better (and more functionally relevant/specific) movement available. To that end...

I believe this is beyond the scope of the post but I will elaborate... I know you were just using the leg extension as an example of a concept, but I will say that leg extensions are a poor choice for a power athlete such as a pole vaulter for a few reasons.

1. They cause patellar tendonitis because the patella was not designed to bear stress in that manner (how often do you apply force with your leg in that manner in normal life?).

2. Squats/deadlifts would be much better because they are safer to do with heavy weight, and force production is key when training a vaulter. Many russian coaches only had their jumpers do half squats, because the joint angles trained in a deep squat are not used at any time during the vault. So instead they would throw on 50 more kilos and have their athletes do half squats so they would recruit more muscle fibers and produce more force in the relevant range of motion.

Again, this post was aimed towards novice vaulters. I was not implying that specificity had no place in the weightroom, just that most people aren't qualified to figure out what is beneficial and what isn't, so they should just stick to the basics. I should have said "Weight lifting is non-specific training... for the most part." If we wanted to split hairs we could say that the squat is a sport specific exercise because it uses the legs, and we use the legs when we pole vault. I think most people on here know what I meant when I said "don't overthink your lifts." But to clarify, dont look at the bench press and think "How can I make this more like the pole vault???" Just bench! Don't get weird.

A very interesting analogy which well illustrates the point that just because a group of people possess a quality you desire does not mean you ought to train like them to achieve it. However I think that the obverse question that should be asked is: should soccer players run cross country?

Put another way, I think that O-lifting is a phenomenal if not the definitive method to both build strength and learn its functional application and it is for that reason that O-lifters have incredible power, high verts, etc. I disagree that it takes years to learn correct technique--masterful, sure, but not correct. And the aspiring vaulter need not squat snatch bodyweight and squat clean and jerk 1.5x bodyweight in order to get huge benefit from O-lifts--derivative movements at lighter weights are very valuable. You can build incredible power without ever actually performing the competition lifts by doing clean pulls, hang power cleans, hang power snatches, push jerks and others. And at the risk of belabouring my earlier point about functionality and its relation to specificity, I would argue that O-lift derivatives are much closer to track and field movements than power lifts and therefore more effective. Not that I would ever cut out the latter completely--as you said, they are excellent for building foundational strength.

One last point...because of their functional relevance I think that O-lifts, in spite of their technical challenges, actually have spillover technical benefits as a side-effect. I, for one, could never come close to potentiating my hip movements when throwing until I learned to do so when doing hang cleans, which also improved my hip movement in running and jumping as well.

No soccer players should not run cross-country. I'm not suggesting that it wouldn't help, I'm just saying that their time would be much better spent doing something more related to soccer... such as playing soccer . Also, I was not suggesting that olympic lifting, in whatever form is not beneficial to a pole vaulter. By all means, if you are a good olympic lifter, then clean/snatch away (I do). What I was saying is that a coach who is dedicating a quarter of his time to teaching his athletes how to clean, is probably wasting a quarter of his time. There are many other ways to develop those athletic characteristics besides olympic lifting. Aaaaaaaaaand a lot of the benefit from olympic lifting comes from the way they catch the weight in a rapid and extremely powerful eccentric loading phase. And in all my days I have yet to see a non professional olympic lifter actually catch the weight in this manner, without bending the knees WAY too much. However I have seen people do a depth jump (same eccentric loading phase) beautifully on their first day...

Olympic lifts are great if done correctly, no doubt about it. I would argue that they are more similar to shock-training than actual lifting, and in-turn agree with you that they are more directly beneficial to the vault than a power lift. However, as I said, I firmly believe that other forms of shock training are better for the majority of athletes if only because they are easier to learn.