Non-Petrovers

[tennpolevault]

Are you saying he should push more or runner taller or what? I have gotten a lot of comments about the start of his run. It is also the first thing we talked about when we met for the first time and I watched his video from last year. He used to skip out of the back with a little step (until January). He was also taught to start and build up slowly with high hips. We have traditionally used the "push out" method which emphasizes a slight forward lean much like a long jumper/triple jumper. We have had good success with that model over the years but I am always open to change. I understand the concept of coming out of the back very tall and with the left hand in a good support position, chest and hips high. We will be working very hard on his run this summer and fall, but him and I have to be on the same page. His best jumps have come when he pushes harder and with more aggression out of the back. That could be function of short run ?? Jim Bemiller thought he needed more steam out of the back to allow more full development of his acceleration and tempo at the end. The athlete is very open to changes which lead to improvement.

My main focus to allow him to be more petrov model like has been:
1. Better posture....chest up/chin up/hips high
2. Left hand more centered and with elbow underneath....better pole support from the start
3. Consistent start mechanics.....same stride length and with aggressive/committed from the back
4. His drop is pretty dang good. I could only mess that up.
5. Tends to fall forward and caught caught looking @ TO

[altius]

"and caught caught looking @ TO"

-YES indeed - apart from running under, this is the biggest fault with the majority of young american vaulters because it often/usually leads to a flatter take off angle. The rest of your analysis is also spot on.

BUT - re the beginning of the run . When I met Petrov he convinced me that every element in the vault from the first step onwards is important -everything is connected. Now other folk can do whatever they believe in - but I decided that this guy knew what he was talking about and decided to take his stuff on board with no reservations. At that time I was an experienced coach and no dumb bunny - my experience since then has convinced me that it was a good decision.

I am convinced that is what one should do - take it all on board - and not add a few personal variations along the way = as many supposedly Petrovites have done. So in my view the athlete should not lean forward at the start of the run up - they should run like Bubka and run in front of themselves - not behind themselves as this lad is clearly doing. Not going into that here -folk can read the book on that issue.

May be in Knoxville in late June catching up with Botcharnikov - perhaps we can do a clinic there???? No one in Arkansas or Georgia -even Charlie P - is interested but I suppose they want to hang on to their stuff and not let anyone else see what secrets they have.

[vault3rb0y]

Yea... You're on to us. Shhhh.... we got a 6.40 comin in a few years!

[Tim McMichael]

I hate to critique anybody else's athlete unless I have spent some time with their coach asking their opinion before presuming to give mine. This is because there is no way I can know why you are doing what you are or what you are trying to accomplish in any stage of the jump. I also don't want to give the impression that I don't need and value advice or that I somehow feel entitled to give it. That said, I don't think I should suggest that something could be better without at least trying to explain how. I hope this is helpful. Feel free to disregard.

He appears to begin his run with an abrupt forward lean. This happens while the toe of his front foot is still off of the ground causing it to scoot forward before his weight rolls onto it. This causes him to be crouched very low over the pole with his right hand way out in front. His head appears to drop more than a foot in the process of taking that first step. From this position runs himself up into better posture, which happens about four steps into the approach. His form in the middle of his run, as good as it is, appears to be a recovery from his first steps and not the result of them. He seems to want speed first and posture second, and I think it should be the other way around.

The scoot forward of his front foot is no small matter either. The distance it moves will probably vary with how much adrenalin he has and how precise his timing is with the forward and downward drive of his shoulders. This might mean that he has to make unconscious steering compensations as the run progresses. There may also be inconsistency in how long it takes him to rise back up into the posture he wants to run in. How much of an issue this is depends on how well he has grooved his start, but to my mind it makes things harder than they need to be.

The beginning of Bubka's run by comparison appears almost leisurely and very, very, precise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsHMcmPxsT4

Yelena is the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPgI_FLy ... re=related


I also have to say that I have seen a driving first few steps be very effective. Scott Hufffman comes to mind. Scott, however, was working to be tall in his first steps and not necessarily fast. He wanted to drive up into an almost bounding stride and then find his rhythm from there. He worked just as hard out the back as he did the rest of his run, but his velocity increased throughout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5RlDIqR ... re=related

He was also not striving to follow Petrov.

Like I said, feel free to disregard. I am not saying that I know exactly what Bubka was doing or suggesting that you make any changes, just explaining my comments from before. Alan, please offer corrections if I am off base with this.

[dj]

hye

Tim your comments are Golden...

i think there are 2/3 parts to the run... each part can be trained separately and then blended together for a whole.. i think Petrov explained the "three" phases of the run in his paper..

Here is what i did/do with all the vaulters and long jumpers i work with on the run, including Earl and Mike and Tim Mack in 1995.

First of course i use the 6 step "chart" to monitor the speed, rhythm, posture.. everything needed from 6 steps in..

The next thing I do that has never been discussed on here is establish the “perfect” run from the start to the “MID” (6 step) .. this is the piece/process that has been missing from my approach run coaching that most coaches and athletes miss from my clinics because they get focused on my “Mid” chart and miss the part where I say “how you arrive at the "MID" is just as important as the MID, maybe more.

9 times out of 10 every vaulter will work on “control” of the beginning of the run in practice..and not really thinking about natural acceleration.. then they go to the meet, the bar goes up and they accelerate faster out of the back (naturally) and have shorter tighter strides, hit outside their “MID”, stretch..get under and can’t complete the vault. Then they go back to a “slower” run and can vault but not at their maximum because they don’t have the necessary speed.

What should they do? First Stop the “slow” control.. that doesn’t work or help you reach your max.. plus when you get to the meet you will “naturally” accelerate anyway.. making your steps off…

Tim Mack found himself doing this in 2000 at the trials but didn’t move his step “forward” soon enough to make the team. He didn’t make that mistake in 2004.

The problem with trying to get a world class or any vaulter to move the beginning steps "closer" so the acceleration and posture are correct, is THEY “THINK” their run must be longer not shorter!!! I, like them, ultimately believe that is true but you should make it longer by adding 2 steps to the approach.. not by messing with the “natural” rhythm of “speed” and acceleration.

Before I explain how you go onto the track and “practice” the start of the run, let me emphasize this….

The CORRECT posture has to be assumed before and during the first 4 steps.. read Petrov’s paper and copy what he says on grip, hold, angles, stance.. etc.. EXACTLY. Then if you use “natural” acceleration you should arrive at the correct “MID” with the correct speed for that “MID” and grip.

The solution: Take your vaulter to the track.. have he/she toe a mark.. assume the correct posture and accelerate, first as fast as they can with the pole carried in the correct position and without the unnecessary swinging the pole. Keep it stable… Count and mark where the steps are… for a 7 left approach you need the first 4 lefts.. for 8 lefts you need the first 5, 9..6 and 10 is the first 7 lefts.. Keep sprinting and marking.. gradually turn the full standing sprint acceleration with the pole, into a “fast but semi relaxed” contolled sprint acceleration pole carry.. time all of the runs.. come up with the best average mark (distance) from the start of the run to the “MID” and with the best average speed. By best “speed” I mean where will you expect to be during the meet.. remember if you design your run to push out of the back but maintain the correct posture, you can have your "best speed" from the “MID” into takeoff and this system will help you find you most correct, natural and fastest acceleration.

Do this and you will be on your way to having a FAST and accurate run. One that is consistant and thenyou can vault your best in competition.

Let me give you an example of a 8 step approach for a 14 foot female..

Her “MID” was in the 44 foot range… her run was 94.. which means 50 feet for the first 10 (5 left) steps.. you can see her step by step patterns on the chart below under the 4.75 column. This gave here a “natural” acceleration.. from a “correct” posture, pole carry position…this is what I knew she would do during a meet and under pressure. So I “played” to adrenalin and speed, Natural speed, not control and inconsistency. She went from a PR of 12-7 to 13-7 in 3 months by correcting her run and pole carry.
..
....WR...........4.25..........4.50..........4.75...........5.00..........5.25
0-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. 3’9 ¾ ”.....3’ 9 ¾ ”.......3’7”...........3’5”..........3’2 ¾ ”........3’0”
2. 4’2 ½”......8’ 0”..........7’7 ½”........7’2 ½ ”......6’9 ¾ ”.......6’4 ¾”
3. 4’9 ½”......12’ 9 ½“.....12’1 ½”.......11’6”........10’10 ½ ”.....10’2 ½
4. 5’2 ½”......18’ 0”........17’1”..........16’2 ½”......15’3 ¾ ”.....14’4 ¾
5. 5’7”........23’ 7”.........22’5”..........21’2 ¾ ”.....20’ ½ ”.......18’10
6. 5’11”...... 29’ 6”........28’ ¼ ”.........26’6 ½ ”.....25’ ¾ ”.......23’7 ¼
7. 6’2 ½”.....35’ 8 ½”......33’11”.........32’1 ½ ”.....30’4”.........28’6 ¼......
8. 6’5 ½”......42’ 2”........40’1”..........37’11”........35’10”........33’8 ½
9. 6’8”........48’ 10”........46’4 ½ ”.......43’11 ¼ ”....41’6”.........39’ ¼”......
10. 6’10”..... 55’ 8”..... ....52’10 ½ ”.....50’1”.........47’4”.........44’6 ¼”
11. 6’11 ½".....62’ 7 ½”......59’6".........56’4 ½ ”......53’2 ¾ ”......50’1”
12. 7’0 ½”......69’ 8”........65’10”.........62’8 ½ ”......59’2 ¾ ”......55’9 ½”
13. 7’1 ¼ ”......76’ 9 ¼”.....72’11 ¼”......69’ 1”..........65’3”........61’5”
14. 7’2”........83’11 ¼ ”.......79’8 ¾”.......75’6 ½”.......71’4”.......67’1 ¾”


i have actually put cones at all 16 steps... and had her run these on the track at full speed (for our sprint workout) and then run them with "relaxed" speed. It gave her a world class run...


dj

[VaultPurple]

....WR...........4.25..........4.50..........4.75...........5.00..........5.25
0-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. 3’9 ¾ ”.....3’ 9 ¾ ”.......3’7”...........3’5”..........3’2 ¾ ”........3’0”
2. 4’2 ½”......8’ 0”..........7’7 ½”........7’2 ½ ”......6’9 ¾ ”.......6’4 ¾”
3. 4’9 ½”......12’ 9 ½“.....12’1 ½”.......11’6”........10’10 ½ ”.....10’2 ½
4. 5’2 ½”......18’ 0”........17’1”..........16’2 ½”......15’3 ¾ ”.....14’4 ¾
5. 5’7”........23’ 7”.........22’5”..........21’2 ¾ ”.....20’ ½ ”.......18’10
6. 5’11”...... 29’ 6”........28’ ¼ ”.........26’6 ½ ”.....25’ ¾ ”.......23’7 ¼
7. 6’2 ½”.....35’ 8 ½”......33’11”.........32’1 ½ ”.....30’4”.........28’6 ¼......
8. 6’5 ½”......42’ 2”........40’1”..........37’11”........35’10”........33’8 ½
9. 6’8”........48’ 10”........46’4 ½ ”.......43’11 ¼ ”....41’6”.........39’ ¼”......
10. 6’10”..... 55’ 8”..... ....52’10 ½ ”.....50’1”.........47’4”.........44’6......

What exactly are the numbers (4.25-5.25)? Speed in m/s?

[tennpolevault]

What the fudge......look it this guys start. Now this guy needs some help with his first few steps consistency. Surely not petrovian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVdrKHrOMwQ&feature=related

[dj]

good morning

VaultPurple.. believe it or not these are the first 10 steps of a football 40 yard dash.. 4.75 is the steps for a 4.75 40 yard dash.

the 4.25 is the steps for a 4.25 AND Maurice Greene’s first 10 steps in his world record 100m. Greene took 19 steps for 40 “yards”. I would say that if you checked Bolt’s stride pattern for the first 40 yards that he had the same percentages of increase but each step was 2 to 3 centimeters longer, which would put him 38 to 57 centimeters ahead of the world record at the 40 yard or 35 meter mark.

the "physics" of acceleration dictates that each step from the start to the finish has an "exact" percentage of progression.. of course athletes are not “perfect”, they have stong and weak strides.. Maurice Greene did.. and when john smith started to “fix” the weak steps (Maurice had a “weak” leg that caused that leg to push “less” so that step was 3 to 5cm less than the other leg.. losing 90 cm (3 feet! In the first 19 steps) Maurice ran the world recorded and the steps in column WR.

just like Pertrov saying the vault starts with the first step and i use a 6 step "MID" to see if the vaulter is still "ON" at that point... and then we use the takeoff to see if the vaulter is on at that point. everything in speed and the event is "progressive". you miss one step or one physical "marker" like the correct posture, grip and pole carry at the start or the "correct" 6 step mark and you have to "adjust".. adjusting causes a loss of speed or as Kirk has stated many times a "leakage" in the energy input.

these steps and percentages of... can be used for the start from blocks of the sprint/speed races, for the start of the long and triple jump and of course the beginning of the vault up too the 6 step "MID".. at the 6 step in the vault even Pertrov says the strides should become consistent in length and increase in frequency...

dj

[altius]

"look it this guys start." yes indeed apart from anything else the shift of the left foot forward as he took his first step was probably the same distance that he fouled by.

[VaultPurple]

VaultPurple.. believe it or not these are the first 10 steps of a football 40 yard dash.. 4.75 is the steps for a 4.75 40 yard dash.

So since you used the 4.75 column does that mean the girl could run a 4.75 40? or thats just about what her adverage stride length equaled out to be?

[KirkB]

VaultPurple.. believe it or not these are the first 10 steps of a football 40 yard dash.. 4.75 is the steps for a 4.75 40 yard dash.

So since you used the 4.75 column does that mean the girl could run a 4.75 40? or thats just about what her adverage stride length equaled out to be?

VP, just click on this link, and all your questions should be answered ... http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=maurice+greene+40+yards

Seriously tho, I also found this quote here: http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=5019820

When Usain Bolt set the world record in the 100 meters a few months ago, he ran the first 40 yards in 4.22 seconds. The fastest 40-yard start ever recorded in a sanctioned 100-meter dash is Maurice Greene's 4.18 in 1999. Those are fully automatic times, minus reaction time.

And this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_yard_dash

Darrell Green, who ran one of the fastest 40-yard dashes ever at 4.09 seconds (unofficially timed and not verified)[1], had a collegiate best of 10.08 s in the 100 meters.[2] Justin Gatlin, who ran 9.85 for a gold medal at the 2004 Olympic 100 metres, has a verified 40-yard dash best of 4.42 s.[3] This reflects the difference that timing methods can cause to a runner's time.

According to this page http://www.topendsports.com/testing/tests/sprint-40yards.htm a "reacreational college athlete (female) can run the 40 in ~5.8 secs.

DJ isn't saying what the girl could or couldn't do. He's merely showing the step-by-step stride lengths for anyone that COULD run a 4.75 40.

Kirk

[dj]

hey

no i'm not saying she can/could run a 4.75.. slower controlled strides are always much longer than sprint strides out of the blocks... By how much(%) I haven’t collected enough data yet to determine that.. maybe the data on the run in another thread will give me some numbers to work with. I had asked on another post for approach lengths and 6 step “MIDS” for all the world class vaulters but I didn’t get any responses…

Tim Mack ran from 138-8ish for 18 steps (9 lefts) and had a MID of 54-8 and TO of 13-8… That is way over the steps for even the sprint world record holder for the first 12 step.. (I just thought I need to add steps 11 and 12 to the chart) when he moved his run forward in 2004 it was by apprx 2 feet.. and that 2 feet allowed him to accelerate faster but still hit the 54-8 “MID”. If he had not have moved forward his acceleration, which comes with quicker shorter steps, would have put him to far out to takeoff correctly.

Personally I felt he should go back to 20 steps, accelerate faster with less “over striding” If you do the math his last step just before the “MID” was considerably longer than the “average” step from “MID” to takeoff. Petrov says and I agree whole heartedly that the last 6 steps should have a consistent length and an increased frequency.. That is actually the only way a long jumper or vaulter can get the hips in the correct position to takeoff properly with any kind of a jump "impluse". I picked that bit of info up in the 60’s from some Russian technical papers.

Back to the chart and what it represents. My vaulter girl could run close to 5.0 and the fastest women I have ever tested with the steps ran 4.7 and was on the national women’s Rugby team. She ran the exact steps for 4.7, which I think is 22/23 steps for 40 yards.. she ran before I brought out the chart and I also have a stretchable bungee with the exact percentages on it. We put out markers for her second run and she hit them without looking and had a similar time. Marion Jones ran 21 steps for 40 yards and the time and steps to match. Carl Lewis’ record before greene had the same percentages but green beat him by apprx 2cm per step fro 19 steps which put green ahead of the record by 38cm.

The result of all my “chatter’ sorry… is if your tenth step is at 50 feet the distances for each step leading up to the "MID" should be the marks on the chart.

Footballers have found that if they hit 8 feet from the start for two steps, 18 feet for 4 and 10 yards for 6 steps.. they are fast…

Sprint coaches know that step number 7 from the blocks should be a little over 10 meters… 12 steps over 20 meters and 16 steps for 30 meters… get some film out for bolt and see how many steps he took for 30 meters???

This chart just gives you a way to train the “consistency” of the start of you run… and to match your "natural" rhythm you still have to set up properly and have the correct pole carry and posture.

dj