What comes first - athleticism or technical ability?

[powerplant42]

So I have made some sketches of what we have been discussing... I will refine them over the next week or so. They represent a few different approaches to technical vs. strength training relative volume, just some very basic, long term ideas.

Oh, and Fred will have his own thread in a few days. Please stick with this guy, I have a purpose with his story that really gets to 'the nub' of this problem, and could possibly open up a LOT of extra discussion!

[powerplant42]

I don't think this one should drop much further into the depths of this board... This discussion never left my thoughts for TOO long. I want to get this discussion going again!

The key in the pole vault (and most events) is energy. It always has been and it always will be. We all know that being energy efficient means leaking little energy. But what about the energy that is going in? This comes from speed and strength.

There is a ratio for any given jump that depicts how much energy is lost from the energy that is put in. For different technical models there is varying difficulty of attaining the desired ratio: 1 to 0... 1 'unit' of energy put in, 0 'units' of energy leaked. This is of course impossible, but it is the goal.

Assuming the vaulter is using the correct grip and pole, we can only increase the jump height in two ways:
1. Increase the energy that is put into the system
2. Decrease the 'energy leakage factor' (ELF) (Tell me that's not a cool acronym! )

Now one must ask: Which is easier and/or more appropriate to do WHEN? Get stronger/faster (speed is arguably more important than other measures of strength, but I'll save that for a later post) and increase the energy input, or decrease the ELF with technical work?

I safely assume that "I wanna be a world class pole vaulter" doesn't come out of the mouth of most children... But what SHOULD a vaulter's early to mid childhood (~4-10) be like? I believe it should be filled with gymnastics of any type (but bars are the best!), all sorts of different athletic endeavors (especially ones that require anaerobic activity/lots of jumping, like martial arts, short distance swimming, and volleyball), any games that improve coordination and reaction time (including video games), and bombarded with the food pyramid. There can be some lifting, but preferrably largely limited to plyometric actions with bodyweight only. After the age of 6 or so, occasionally (1-2 times per month) doing some of the basic lifts (squats, bench, etc.) would not be a bad thing. Sit ups and sprints are ALWAYS okay!

The question now becomes when should they pick up a pole? Altius had mentioned 10 year olds should not be vaulting... Why not? Can you explain your reasoning?

But we are getting a little idealistic.

I didn't give much background on Fred (my generic vaulter brainchild)... I said he was 'decently athletic'. That doesn't cut it now... Here are some relevant stats taken in the first few days he joined the team:

Height: 5'9"
Weight: 126#
Bench Press: 105#
Squat: 165#
100m: 13.1 hand timed, no blocks, no spikes
Standing long jump: 7'1"
Pull ups (forward hands): 9
Sit ups (1 minute): 52
Standing vertical jump: 20"

In the world of high school pole vaulting there is a bad situation. It is most appropriate for Fred to be on the track, in the sand, and on the runway throughout the entire calendar year, but he does not know this (nor can he be on the runway because the pit is locked up until Spring)... He sees HIS physical stats and then checks out Tim Mack's website and looks at his 32" vertical, 10'6" standing long jump, and 173 pound snatch.

What should Fred do? What mistakes could he have already avoided and how? If you were his coach, what changes would you make to him and the program?

For Fred, is the ELF or the input the limiting factor?

Inside this question lies my training paradox which I've modified once again:

(Assume that every minute spent decreasing the ELF could also be spent increasing input, and that coaching and equipment for each is perfect.) As the vaulter decreases his ELF, the time it takes to decrease the ELF by the same amount increases. As the vaulter becomes capable of more input, the time it takes to increase input by the same amount increases. As the ELF decreases and input increases, the marginal height renderred decreases.* The potential for an increase in input is greater than the potential for decrease in ELF.**

*Even though elite vaulters are separated by inches, (unlike many high school competitions,) this point is still very relevant...
**Strength can keep growing and growing, but eventually the ELF will approach the asymptote of 0... I know that saying strength is potentially unlimited is a stretch, but what would you have me say? Remember that this is an idealized situation...

But like most things, IT DEPENDS... It's all dependent on the athlete and the situation. Fred's coaching and equipment is not 'perfect', whatever that is. Nobody's equipment or coaching is perfect, so extraneous variables enter the equation.

I will ask again: WHAT IS (should) FRED GONNA DO?

I will explain my graphs later today or tomorrow. They are very basic ideas.

I hope we can get talking again!!!

[powerplant42]

Get practicing... Have you heard of the 10,000 hour rule? It takes 10,000 hours of performing a task like vaulting to become truly successful at it. That's about 3 hours a day for 10 years. I had heard about this rule before, but I stumbled upon the most CURIOUS article while I was researching it. I found an answer to my question to altius in it, along with some VERY relevant information (though it seems as if I'm by myself in this thread... oh well).

http://coaching.usolympicteam.com/coach ... /v/2ltad04

I have not read all the way through it yet, but I should have by tomorrow.

[KirkB]

Yes, I read that recently too.

But remember that it's not just the repitition.

It's QUALITY repetition that counts! i.e. Repitition with GOOD technique.

Kirk

[powerplant42]

Another 10,000 hours to relearn, perhaps? I guess it depends on how big the problem is.

[KirkB]

Another 10,000 hours to relearn, perhaps? ...

I think one thing that the authors are inferring (if you read between the lines) is that each time you "repeat" a body action, you improve upon your previous rep. This is true within a workout - from your first to your last rep; within a season; and over your entire career.

So it's not just 10,000 reps of the same action. Rather, it's iterative improvement of each rep over time - LOTS of reps over LOTS of time!

I think these iterative improvements fall into 2 categories: (a) those that you do subconciously - the natural adaption of your body actions toward more efficient motions (via the 5 S's of training); and (b) those that you do cognizantly - by intent, thru self-improvement or coaching (also via the 5 S's).

From: http://coaching.usolympicteam.com/coaching/kpub.nsf/v/2ltad04

Scientific research has concluded that it takes eight-to-twelve years of training for a talented player/athlete to reach elite levels. This is called the ten-year or 10,000 hour rule, which translates to slightly more than three hours of practice daily for ten years

I like this paper, and it's not just because it's written by 2 Canadian authors but it's on the US Olympic Team website. (Please forgive my obvious jingoism!)

Here's a quiz for those that have read the paper ...

Q1: What are the Five S’s of training and performance?

Q2: Can you name the 4 ABCs of athletics?

Q3: What is PHV, and what's it's relevance to this thread?

Q4: During the "Training to Train", "Training to Compete", and "Training to Win" stages, what do you think might be the ideal ratios of training to competition for the PV?

Q5: Is PV an EARLY specialization sport, or a LATE specialization sport?

Q6: Do you think that this paper applies to PV, or do you think that our sport is an exception? Why?

The first few questions are easy, but the last few are debatable - but still "on topic" for this thread. So let's debate it!

Kirk

[powerplant42]

1. Stamina, speed, strength, skill, suppleness
2. Agility, balance, coordination, speed
3. PHV is when specialization of training schedule needs to happen. How will the athlete schedule their training time? It depends on their biological age...
4. Not sure...
5. Definitely late.
6. The paper applies to pole vaulting... It is a very general article. I'm not sure where you're going with this...?

I'll be away for a few days, so don't wait up for more posts from me!

[birdi_gurlie]

Kirk, what's the answer to number 4?

[powerplant42]

Oh yay!!!

There is no 'clear cut' answer... It's supposed to facilitate a discussion on the topic!

Well, after the general sports phase, the athlete should have an 'acceptable' level of fitness. BG, you absolutely fit into this category after I've read what you've been doing for the past years. I will count high bar/gymnastics and sprint/speed work as components of technical training, because that is the main goal in their use. However, they have physical/athleticism benefits as well... They should be largely incorporated into technical training. I would say in the 'Training to Train' phase, probably something like 99%/1%, then 90%/10%, then in the final phase, 80%/20%.

Keep this in the perspective of where one is in the macrocycle and microcycle... There should be NO weight training in ANYONE'S training at the end of a season, for example... Likewise, lifting the day before a meet is just stupid.

[birdi_gurlie]

Okay. And I'm still not entirely sure about that one...I tend to slack off during XC season and such...I'll do tons of high bar though...it's fun My friend was spotting me one day and said I looked like a monkey. I guess that's a good thing, lol.

Yeah...I know that's stupid...I've NEVER done that...some of the people I know do that and I was like, "dude...that's not a smart idea..."
Though, the end of "my" season and the end of the team's season is different, sometimes...depends on whether I go to conference, region, and/or states.

[gymnastsrock]

This year, our coaches had us train through all the early meets. So if we were scheduled to lift the day before a meet, we did. Usually we did harder running workouts on Fridays, and having a meet that Saturday didn't change that. We worked like that through the last week of April. I can't say I understand why we did that...

[rainbowgirl28]

This year, our coaches had us train through all the early meets. So if we were scheduled to lift the day before a meet, we did. Usually we did harder running workouts on Fridays, and having a meet that Saturday didn't change that. We worked like that through the last week of April. I can't say I understand why we did that...

Periodization.