Weight Training: Case of Allyson Felix

[IAmTheWalrus]

This topic relates to a previous topic: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16020&p=130719&hilit=speed+article#p130719 , which speaks about the value of power to weight ratio (being able to deliver maximal force over a short time, with little weight gain). They emphasize the dead lift as a critical exercise, and use a low set, low rep, high weight system. The example they use in the article is Allyson Felix, who at 120lbs was able to dead lift 300+lbs. You can read all of this in the above topic. I have also heard similar things stated by DJ and other I believe (in particular I recall DJ mentioning the Deadlift with a similar set, rep, weight structure).

However, I recently ran across this article: http://magazine.stack.com/TheIssue/Arti ... Track.aspx . Scroll down to the section labeled "Training", and you'll find her current coach talk about having her gain mass, and stating that the way she was previously lifting was wrong. This seems to completely contradict the other article, and I was wondering what people thought.

Personally I thought that what the first article said was sound advice, and have been transitioning my training towards that, and so I found this change in her training alarming.

Thoughts?


P.S. 2-0 Go 49'ers !!!!

[Tim McMichael]

You do NOT want to be heavy in the vault.

[KirkB]

The way I understand that article is that Felix's coach wants her to have more of the physique of a 100m sprinter. She's rather skinny for a 200m sprinter, so he wants to beef up her legs. Based on the physical appearance of elite sprinters, there's no doubt that 200m sprinters should have lots of muscle ... bulky muscle ... perhaps less than 100m sprinters but more than 400m sprinters ... but that's NOT what we need for PV. The difference is that we must swing UP and defy gravity a lot more than a sprinter. Thus, we need to have more of the physique of a gymnast ... lean legs ... not a sprinter's legs.

KE can explain the difference between bulky muscle and lean muscle ... not me. It's interesting that even in Don Bragg's day (he had the physique of Tarzan) his bulk was in his arms and shoulders ... not his legs. Heavy legs are a HUGE disadvantage to vaulters ... as well as to gymnasts.

Kirk

[KYLE ELLIS]

The way I understand that article is that Felix's coach wants her to have more of the physique of a 100m sprinter. She's rather skinny for a 200m sprinter, so he wants to beef up her legs. Based on the physical appearance of elite sprinters, there's no doubt that 200m sprinters should have lots of muscle ... bulky muscle ... perhaps less than 100m sprinters but more than 400m sprinters ... but that's NOT what we need for PV. The difference is that we must swing UP and defy gravity a lot more than a sprinter. Thus, we need to have more of the physique of a gymnast ... lean legs ... not a sprinter's legs.

KE can explain the difference between bulky muscle and lean muscle ... not me. It's interesting that even in Don Bragg's day (he had the physique of Tarzan) his bulk was in his arms and shoulders ... not his legs. Heavy legs are a HUGE disadvantage to vaulters ... as well as to gymnasts.

Kirk

I would agree more with first article, I am a believer in recruitment. The human body (even with athletes like allison) can do alot more than what you think. The body is naturally lazy and we have to trick it into using more than it actually does. There are alot of muscle fibers that lay dormant ad don't do anything until an emergeny, this is when you hear stories of ladies lifting cars and stories like that. Using lifts like the Deadlift with low reps can envoke dormant muscle fibers (known as recruitment) and stimulate the CNS. This is why strength gains can be made without increasing size. According to a science a new lifter won't gain any muscle in the first two weeks of lifting, but will most likely see an increase in strength because of the principles above.

There are alot of very bulky sprinters, but the two fastest guys in the world Tyson Gay and Usain Bolt aren't bulky. So I don't know that she has to get bigger to be good at the 100/200.. From what I know, developed leg stregth can help in the acceleration phase of the sprints (think ben johnson who could probably squat 500+lbs and came out of the blocks like a rocket).. But it doesn't seem to have any impact on top end speed; I can find the study if needed. So maybe it would help her bit coming out of the blocks for those two races??? Since the acceleration phase isn't important in the vault then I dont think you want to have significant hypertrophy of the legs, since it won't help you over the last 5meters.
Natural hypertrophy will occur with repeated training of events and apparently will also increase myolin sheeth (increasing the speed of the signal from the brain to the muscle fiber) but as far as the jumps go I would definately would say you want to keep hypertrophy to a minimum.

[IAmTheWalrus]

Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines as you Kyle. Also, I know that one doesn't want to bulk up for the vault, my question is whether or not its worth it for speed in general, since if she's lifting almost 3x her body weight in the DL now, it will take a much larger increase in strength (although power is what's critical IMHO) to match that percentage. Acceleration and injury prevention would be the only things that would make sense to me as a reason to increase size, and I'm sure it could easily make you more injury prone.

[KYLE ELLIS]

Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines as you Kyle. Also, I know that one doesn't want to bulk up for the vault, my question is whether or not its worth it for speed in general, since if she's lifting almost 3x her body weight in the DL now, it will take a much larger increase in strength (although power is what's critical IMHO) to match that percentage. Acceleration and injury prevention would be the only things that would make sense to me as a reason to increase size, and I'm sure it could easily make you more injury prone.

Actually I think increase in over all muscle size puts you more at risk for injuries, especially in sports like football.

[Erica]

Allyson Felix is in no way "bulked up" or heavy! Have you seen her? Her nickname was "Chicken Legs". If you have no muscle and are skinny, you are also weak. She is working on increasing her strength levels by lifting weights. She now has an amazing strength-to-weight ratio which has been a huge asset to her improved times.
For athletes who are underdeveloped or weak, building muscle mass will help prevent injuries that occur from weakness. This does not mean that all muscle mass is beneficial. An athlete must also develop connective tissues to be capable of handling their strength. When Allyson's coach talked about increasing her frame and lean body mass before focusing on strength and power (heavy reps), he is basically saying she must train the rest of her body to catch up with the muscle mass she put on in high school. She must become more balanced (larger tendons, ligaments, frame) in order to prevent causing injury to herself due to strength imbalances.

I would advise any vaulter that looks like Allyson Felix to increase their work in the weight room, but if the vaulter looked like Lauren Williams, they had better do everything they can to lighten up and thin down. Athletes should train according to their own strengths and weaknesses, so it is difficult to have a standard workout that is the best for everyone.

[KYLE ELLIS]

Allyson Felix is in no way "bulked up" or heavy! Have you seen her? Her nickname was "Chicken Legs". If you have no muscle and are skinny, you are also weak. She is working on increasing her strength levels by lifting weights. She now has an amazing strength-to-weight ratio which has been a huge asset to her improved times.
For athletes who are underdeveloped or weak, building muscle mass will help prevent injuries that occur from weakness. This does not mean that all muscle mass is beneficial. An athlete must also develop connective tissues to be capable of handling their strength. When Allyson's coach talked about increasing her frame and lean body mass before focusing on strength and power (heavy reps), he is basically saying she must train the rest of her body to catch up with the muscle mass she put on in high school. She must become more balanced (larger tendons, ligaments, frame) in order to prevent causing injury to herself due to strength imbalances.

I would advise any vaulter that looks like Allyson Felix to increase their work in the weight room, but if the vaulter looked like Lauren Williams, they had better do everything they can to lighten up and thin down. Athletes should train according to their own strengths and weaknesses, so it is difficult to have a standard workout that is the best for everyone.

Two things, because you are skinny doesn't mean you are weak like I stated above, also did Allison have a history of injuries?? It seems its always the larger athletes that get hurt. People have different body types, and I don't think you want to stray too far from your natural size. The reason I say putting mass on increases injury risk is because the athelete is increasing their "absolute strength" and their actual strength, this would actuall put more force and tension on the supporting tendons and ligaments. The reason I used football as an example is because they put on large amounts of weight in short periods of time and their body (& tendons/ ligaments) don't have the appropriate time to get used to the new load.

And at first you said she was super skinny, then you said something about the rest of her body needing to catch up to the muscle size she gained in high school?? I din't understnd that statement. Especially since she lookes the same or slightly bigger since high school. Also I associate strength imbalances as having imbalance in agonist and antagonist muscle groups?? Is that what you were talking about, because if so then I would agree that some hypertrophy might be needed. But she doesn't need to gain mass just because she is strong for her size, which is what I got from your statement???

[Erica]

For Allyson, an increase from 120 to 125 lbs is a significant difference. She needs to develop her connective tissues and stabilizer muscles to in order to fully benefit from her stength gain and prevent injury. An important part of an elite athlete's training is preventing injury, not waiting until you have a history with it to deal with imbalances or potential problems.

[BadMotherVaulter]

For Allyson, an increase from 120 to 125 lbs is a significant difference. She needs to develop her connective tissues and stabilizer muscles to in order to fully benefit from her stength gain and prevent injury. An important part of an elite athlete's training is preventing injury, not waiting until you have a history with it to deal with imbalances or potential problems.

Couldn't agree more. Muscular balance is vastly important.

That's what much of my current workout is, core strengthening and working my stabilizer muscles. I do a pretty long session each workout on one of those half-exercise-ball thingies (pushups, squats, overhead press, shoulder fly's, jump-ups etc) The half-exercise-ball thing makes you use a lot of core/stabilizing muscles as you go through the actual lift so you're working a lot more than just the target muscles.

[Lax PV]

For Allyson, an increase from 120 to 125 lbs is a significant difference. She needs to develop her connective tissues and stabilizer muscles to in order to fully benefit from her stength gain and prevent injury. An important part of an elite athlete's training is preventing injury, not waiting until you have a history with it to deal with imbalances or potential problems.

Couldn't agree more. Muscular balance is vastly important.

That's what much of my current workout is, core strengthening and working my stabilizer muscles. I do a pretty long session each workout on one of those half-exercise-ball thingies (pushups, squats, overhead press, shoulder fly's, jump-ups etc) The half-exercise-ball thing makes you use a lot of core/stabilizing muscles as you go through the actual lift so you're working a lot more than just the target muscles.

I agree that they can be good to work in as a supplementary set of exercises, but I (personally) am not a huge fan of tons of BOSU ball (the half ball you were talking about) and AirEx pad training. While they have their place as pre-hab tools, I think for most training, they take away from the main goal at hand--that being to create a lot of force, to create a stimulus in your muscle. I hear a lot of talk about "ground reaction forces create speed" lately, and it has been scientifically shown that it does. Many of these instability training protocols minimize your ability to create force with the ground (example being, do you have a higher vertical jump in sand, or on a basketball court?) A solid surface provides a more direct force vector in response to the force that was applied to the surface, thus the magnitude of the GRF is greater. I think a lot of "core stability" can be trained indirectly through dead lift, back squat, standing shoulder press etc. and when it comes to 'core training' hop on a high bar or something similar...

Just my $0.02. Thoughts??

[EIUvltr]

The squat and deadlift should be in every track athlete's lifting program. Not only should they be in it, but they should be the core exercises. Secondary exercises would be the bench press, press, and power clean. Variations of these exercises (dumbbell bench press, TRX push-ups, bulgarian split squats, etc.) should be considered accessory exercises, but never substitutes. The reason the squat and deadlift are so great is because the entire body has to work in the movement. In the squat the legs dynamically contract while the upper body maintains a very strong isometric contraction to allow the force the legs create to be transferred through the rigid upper body to the bar. The dead lift is similar except that the back is much more involved and the quadriceps are much more removed due to the fact that they begin the movement partially contracted. These exercises are fantastic because they teach your body to move more efficiently. If I'm coaching a pole vaulter, I'm not thinking "I want this girl to deadlift 3x her bodyweight." I'm thinking "I want this girl to deadlift so she learns how to activate her hamstrings and gluts correctly while simultaneously keeping her core and upper body nice and stable."

Yes hypertrophy can result from lifting and some athletes may gain/lose weight easier than others. But comparing one person's response to an exercise program to another person's is actually an exercise in futility. Just because a certain level of intensity and/or volume elicited a bit too much hypertrophy in Allyson Felix does not mean that it will occur in you. Also, some studies have shown that there is a very small difference in energy usage between light and heavy limbed animals since the majority of the energy used when running is stored in the elatstic components of the muscle. So hypertrophy may not be so bad after all as long as it doesn't negatively affect joint mobility or RFD.