Bottom arm discussion continues...

[PVDaddy]

by KirkB » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:45 am

PVDaddy wrote:

In regards to the left hand pull in the vault ... some left hand pull begins very early in the vault very soon after the plant and that it becomes ever more aggresive throughout the swing to verticle.

Daddy, your comments seem to be out of context. You're arguing for a pull with the left arm ... and your argument appears to be a carbon copy of your post in the PV Manifesto thread a couple days ago ... yet this is what Hooker said about his technique ...
dougb wrote:

... Steven Hooker
4:05 PM

If you watch my jump I don't use a lot of left arm at the point of take off. Then I try and hit the pole agressively with the left as I start to swing my trail leg and get inverted.
When he says he tries to "hit" the pole aggressively with the left", he's referring to a push ... not a pull.

Yes Kirk I'm arguing for a pull after the plant after the pole has already been loaded after complete elasticity ie. Reverse-c! That left pull would begin in the lats.

I'm glad that you feel I almost have a good understanding of pull and push. LOL

[PVDaddy]

Tom said:

PV Daddy, I agree that the left arm pulls as the vaulter straightens up and around the pole. I try to pull my left wrist to the left side of my face as my right hand comes to the right hip, allowing the COM to stay in alignment with the pole for the full recoil. After that, both hands push again.

Tom these are the kind of comments that I salivate over and are the reason I come to this site!
I think that I will come back to it a few times and stew on it for a while! LOL I will......

Kirk, I do not wholeheartedly agree that it is nescessary to complicate what a Push or Pull is but I do feel it is impariteive that one correctly clarifies exactly when or how it should take place.

Notice I began my first paragraph " In regards to the left hand PULL" or something to that effect so that I was refering to a time of Pull not Push.

Also I personally would not read all that into Hookers Simple statement. It was nor descriptive enough for me to assume he meant all that. I'm the type that has to be sure.

More importantly, I know that I described a whole lot up there and love to get feedback from you Highflyers. I know that it will be very hard for two different vaulters to totally agree on what is best technique. I am currently building mine around the 97 Vault and we all know who's that was. When you see my description above about when I believe the best time to Push or Pull I am basing it on what I see and believe is the Ukraines intent and also by what I feel in my bones. LOL

[PVDaddy]

Tom, it so interesting that you would mention this becuase you hit on the very point I have been observing in the Masters 97 vault?
You said.
" Yep, top and bottom arms both push AND pull at various stages of the vault, so the matter can't be simplified into one arm doing one thing or not." I so totally agree!

For example:
At plant BOTH arms reach up skyward for the most free take off possible and continue reaching up to move the pole to verticle. By our definition I believe this would be a Push, but again note BOTH hands.

After the vaulter has jumped off the ground His mass and acceleration is greater than the acceleration of the pole and because one end of the pole is fixed in the box, this impart a load on the pole and cases it to bend. The left hand (with the left elbow bent) and the right arm stretched up to maximum BOTH impart a load upon the pole and continue to up to the point of Maximum elasticity in the full inverted-C position. Again because this is imparting a forward pressure on the pole even though the arms can only go so far I would still call this a Push even though the mass and accelleration of the body are imparting the load through the arms in this case.

I remember Petrov mentioning in his model the importance of flexabillity in the shoulder girdle and for me this adds yet another dimention to complete elasticity not only from the top arm down to the trail leg but also it is occuring in BOTH shoulder girdles! Remember that a stretched muscle is able to recoil much faster than one that is not stretched so I cannot think of a better time to begin a pull, even if it is begining in the Lats. Thats why I believe it is important to begin your pull Immediately after complete C and why I am an advocate of the chest leading the take off. In fact IMOI it would be detrimental to begin pulling prior to this point because it would effect body position but more importantly the elasticity of the shoulder Girdles. Look at the Video, BOTH shoulders recoil as the accelerating mass of the body loads the pole. However, the right shoulder recoils more. This is because the top arm is extended and imparts the load first and the bent bottom arm makes sure it occurs this way, although it does impart some pressure to the pole and some stretching does take place in the Bottom arm shoulder girdle as well. So it only makes sense to me that the pull would begin with the right and immediately assisted with the left. It seems to me that it would make sense to exert some outward and left pressure of the bottom arm elbow to make sure the bottom arm shoulder girdle get stretched and to open up the window for the swing. Also it would make it easier to swing with the left elbow bent.
But once again BOTH shoulders and lats are effected by this action and Both arms are involved throughout the swing, the pull, and the Push so that it does not make sense to talk about one without the other IMMHO.

Kirk, I was left confused about why You had said that a pull or a push occurs when the bottom arm is engaged in applying pressure to the pole. By definition would it not be more correct to say that a pull or push occurs when the Bottom or top arm applies pressure to the pole?

[KirkB]

Daddy, just when I think you "got it", you come up with minor mistakes in your analysis. I say minor, becuz I really think that you "got" most of the most important points. You certainly "got it" a lot better than most 3.00 vaulters!

Last things first ...

Kirk, I was left confused about why You had said that a pull or a push occurs when the bottom arm is engaged in applying pressure to the pole. By definition would it not be more correct to say that a pull or push occurs when the Bottom or top arm applies pressure to the pole?

The title of this thread is "Bottom arm discussion continues...". On that note, I defined a pull or push in that context. Nothing more.

Keep in mind that I'm only pointing out the picky litle details where I think you go astray here. Generally, I like your analysis!

... At plant BOTH arms reach up skyward for the most free take off possible and continue reaching up to move the pole to verticle. By our definition I believe this would be a Push, but again note BOTH hands.

NOT to vertical. Maybe you don't understand what "rotating the pole to vertical" means? It means the motion of the CHORD of the pole from takeoff thru to when it has rotated to a vertical position. Clearly, you do NOT want to reach both arms skyward for this duration!

... The left hand (with the left elbow bent) and the right arm stretched up to maximum BOTH impart a load upon the pole and continue to up to the point of Maximum elasticity in the full inverted-C position. Again because this is imparting a forward pressure on the pole even though the arms can only go so far I would still call this a Push ...

You imply that this type of push with the bottom arm (both arms) is proper technique. Altho there's much debate about this ... and there will always be some debate about this ... no one has yet proven that a bottom arm PUSH is essential to bending the pole optimally. In fact, my position is quite the opposite. I assert that (for the most part) the pole is going to bend ... as much as it's going to bend ... due to the speed of the run and takeoff ... DESPITE what you do with the bottom arm (pull, push, or use it just for balance). I say "for the most part" becuz it's actually true that you can get SLIGHTLY more bend out of a pole with bottom arm pressure, but what you gain by this you lose in so many other ways ... so it's inadvisable.

... I believe it is important to begin your pull Immediately after complete C and why I am an advocate of the chest leading the take off.

Both arms are involved throughout the swing, the pull, and the Push so that it does not make sense to talk about one without the other IMMHO.

Well, that's a mouthful, so let's break it down ...

First, this thread is focussed on the bottom arm ... in particular "to push or not to push". Have you read this entire thread for context? So to discuss the bottom arm only here makes perfect sense. You're trying to discuss the entire vault on this one thread, and that's not its intent.

Second, I agree that BOTH arms are involved throughout the SWING. But remember that the SWING should not start until immediately AFTER the pre-stretch. So IMHO, any push, pull, or other bottom arm action PRIOR to the end of the pre-stretch is sub-optimal. Let the top arm do ALL the work (or as much as you have the shoulder strength to do - keeping safety in mind). If you push with the bottom arm ... no matter how little ... you're letting it serve as a shock-absorber ... which leaks energy from the vaulter-pole system. With an "out" takeoff and a good forwards-leaning body angle, the "shock" gets absorbed by the natural second pendulum of your body around the top hand fulcrum.

I've never explained it on PVP in these words before (and you won't have read it anywhere else - this is part of my Bryde Bend model - I know what I felt but I didn't explain it very well), but this is quite an important point. DON'T push and try to force energy INTO the pole, but rather just use the bottom arm for balance, and let the natural SWINGING action of the top arm absorb the shock of the pole hitting the box! The great side-effect of this is that NO ENERGY IS LOST ... and THE SWING GETS AN IMMEDIATE KICK-START as soon as your body is fully stretched. You don't even have to TIME this. It just happens at the right time ... INSTANTLY! Physics looks after all of the timing! Caveat: You need a very strong top hand/arm/shoulder for this.

Next, the pull. So if that's the pull with both arms as you're transitioning from the backwards C to the forwards C, then I concur full-heartedly.

Last, the push. So if that's the push off the top of the pole, then OK ... whatever. But that point is a little out of context, since this entire thread is about what to do with the bottom arm ON TAKEOFF and immediately AFTER takeoff.

Other than the points I mentioned, I think you're on the right track, Daddy!

Kirk

[dougb]

Pull, push what do those words mean?

Push seems to be pretty straight forward. If your intent and effort is to move your hand (fist) away from your shoulder then, that is a push.

Pull seems to get more complicated. One example of a pull is the bicep pull as in a pull up. Anther pull is the latt pull where the elbow remains straight but the hand is pulled toward the body. Some refer to this as a row.

It would be helpful to this discussion if all would make clear what type of pull is being referred to.

When Steve Hooker was talking about hitting the left arm aggressively Kirk had it right. He pushes hard with the left arm in order to move his shoulders away from and below the pole at the same time as his trail leg (legs) are moving forward. This push of his left arm moves the axis of rotation from his top hand to his shoulders and allows an increase in rotation speed because the axis of rotation has moved closer to his center of mass. Sorry if I put you to sleep with that last sentence.

Steve is not alone in using this push of the left arm. In fact all male elite vaulters do the same thing. Often this is considered blocking. Steve and Sergie Bubka take off and use their arms in an almost identical manner.

A good example of pulling with the left arm at take off is Yelena Isinbeyeva. She uses a left arm bicep pull though to inversion. It works for her but Petrov has been trying to get her to vault like Bubka with a left arm push and then a lat pull. Result mixed.

Another advantage of the left arm push is a “cranking” of the pole. Like it or not, this event is pole bending not pole vaulting. Nothing wrong with that but only trying to bend the pole with the top hand is like vaulting with one hand.

These are my opinions and I realize since, much of the above has bee a conclusion in my mind, I have been searching out the opinions and intent of elite vaulters. Hence my question to Mr. Hooker.

Doug Balcomb

[altius]

[quote="dougb"]

Like it or not, this event is pole bending not pole vaulting.

IMHO this is a very dangerous notion - if taken up it will set US vaulting back fifty years.

[dougb]

Perhaps I was a little extreme. A more useful way for putting it would be:

Like it or not, pole vaulting invovles pole bending.

Thank you Altius.

Although, to put pole vaulting back anouther 50 yrs, would have us at -100 yrs according to some of your comments on our coaching techniques.

Doug Balcomb

[altius]

No Doug - I understand it is possible to serve prison sentences concurrently so that is what might happen here. The ideas on flexible vaulting generated in the first phase of fibreglass poles would simply continue on - as they still do in many places. You only have to read the material put up here almost every day to discover that! However you should note that I have often said on PVP that there are many excellent coaches in the USA - just not enough of them.

[PVDaddy]

Kirk said;

Daddy, just when I think you "got it", you come up with minor mistakes in your analysis. I say minor, becuz I really think that you "got" most of the most important points. You certainly "got it" a lot better than most 3.00 vaulters!

Just when you think I got it? What according to the Kirk Bryde Method? Kirk, I a have a lot of respect for your understanding of the Correct pole vault method only because a great deal of it (in fact most) is in agreement with what I think is the best method based on my own research and observations and also based on what makes sense to me and for no other reason. No disrespect intended, but I don't think you have arrived yourself, in fact very few have with exception perhaps of Sergei. The reason I say Sergei is because after spending countless hours of studying his vault I can't find any flaws in his vault ( That is the reason I am building my model around it and not just because he holds the world record) except perhaps I believe he could do a better job of keeping his legs lined up after inversion. He also displays many important techniques that are not adequetly described in the Petrov Model and for that I hold him in at least in as high regards as Petrov himself.
I have attempted to bring some of these things to light (even things that I have never heard described on here or anywere else) but have recieved very little feed back on those things and most ( not all you have also helped me with new insite and it is greatly appreciated) of the feedback I get are on areas that you have misunderstood ( it has felt at times purposely tried to twist) my intentions. I hate waisting my time on a lot of that because, believe it or not I am here to learn, even though I only vaulted for two years with no coaching and my PR was only 10.5 ft. I spent at least 3 weeks on here reading as much of what I thought were great points and two months previous every day on every site I could find before I discovered this one, before I ever made a post on here. I would hope by now that " I got most of the important points. " More importantly it would be nice to think that I could share something that might be of use to others. When I was studying wrestling technique a friend of mine made a statement that I will never forget. He said ; " Anyone regardless of how good he may be, will always have at least one thing to share with you that you can benefit from! " His Son went on to become a National Champ and I had the privelage of coaching him for a few years.

Kirk, I am not a fan of your foward lean at plant. Sergei actually has a slightly backward lean in the last steps of his approach and certainly is nothing short of standing entirely erect at plant.

In regard to my statement about reaching out with both hands and continuing to do so as the pole is moving toward verticle, of course I did not mean to do that throughout the entire vault! That is obvious to anyone who has read so many of my other post were I have described other details of the vault in great details in so many of my other post! I got that from Sergei himself were he said something to this effect " I reach up to the sky at plant and continue to reach up. You Americans get scared and want to pull or push when I continue to reach skyward." What I got from that was that he continues to reach skyward continuously right up to the point of maximum elasticity of both the body and shoulders (complete stretch in the inverted-C) and then he begins to pull first with the right and then immediately with the assistance of the left. He did not say anything about pushing with the left first as he is stretching. I believe that the slight push from the left and the pull form the right is a natural occurance that occurs as he loads the pole as he enters the inverted-C and the pole bends on its own. I also believe that if Hooker is "hitting the pole " hard with the left (as some feel that is what he is describing) as he is loading the pole that he is not vaulting like Bubka. I will also go out on the limb and say that I believe if Hooker did vault like Bubka in all respects, especially giving up that double leg swing he would become the new record holder because I feel he is more athletic.

[KirkB]

I'm sorry to break this to you Daddy, but the reason you're not getting much feedback is that you're a rookie vaulter and a rookie coach. As I've mentioned in the past, your 3 weeks of PVP analysis doesn't entitle you to proclaim your theories on the Advanced Technique forum and expect to be taken seriously.

... At plant BOTH arms reach up skyward for the most free take off possible and continue reaching up to move the pole to verticle. By our definition I believe this would be a Push, but again note BOTH hands.

NOT to vertical. ...

In regard to my statement about reaching out with both hands and continuing to do so , of course I did not mean to do that throughout the entire vault! That is obvious to anyone who has read so many of my other post where I have described other as the pole is moving toward verticle details of the vault in great details ...

I tried to be kind when saying that your flaws were MINOR, but your defensiveness when I try to point out even the most MINOR of your flaws in your PV theory are not very constructive. For example, if you really MEANT "as the pole is moving toward vertical", then why didn't you just clarify that, instead of getting into a big huff about it? If you're going to use PV terminology, then at least use it CORRECTLY so that you're not misunderstood!

Using the phrase "move the pole to vertical" incorrectly or out of context does not exactly give people the impression that you know what you're talking about! Geesh, you can't even spell "vertical" correctly ... even when I subtly corrected your spelling several times ... without being critical about it. Yes, NOW I'm being critical!

I doubt that I'll be replying to many more of your posts ON THE ADVANCED TECHNIQUE FORUM, as they simply don't belong here.

Again, as I've mentioned before, I think most of your theories/ideas would be more appropriate on the Beginner or Intermediate Technique Forums ... where you should ASK about them, rather than ASSERT them.

Kirk

[altius]

your 3 weeks of PVP analysis doesn't entitle you to proclaim your theories on the Advanced Technique forum and expect to be taken seriously.

Agree completely - although of course pvdaddy if you have an IQ of 250 plus and have spent hours, weeks or even years discussing the event with Bubka himself - you probably are entitled to explain to the rest of us dumb bunnies the secrets we have been missing over the past twenty seven years. However if that is not the case I suggest you keep your theories to yourself so as not to confuse the littlies who may be tempted to look at the advanced section of this board.

[PVDaddy]

Steve Hooker Said: "If you watch my jump I don't use a lot of left arm at the point of take off. Then I try and hit the pole agressively with the left as I start to swing my trail leg and get inverted. Kirk said:
"When he says he tries to "hit" the pole aggressively with the left", he's referring to a push ... not a pull."
I don't understand how Pushing the pole aggressively with the bottom hand as you start to swing your trail leg would be beneficial? I can understand how pulling with your bottom hand agressively (even if its a lat pull) would increase the speed of the swing.
I don't understand how pushing the pole aggressively with the bottom hand would help you get inverted? I can understand how pulling with the bottom hand agressively would help you get inverted.

Kirk is "hit" the correct pole vault Lexicon for "push"? Although if it's not I certainly would not be one to slam him for it! LOL

Sergei Bubka said (not verbatim but very close to this);

" I reach up to the sky at plant and continue to reach up. You Americans get scared and want to pull or push when I continue to reach skyward."
What I got from that was that he continues to reach skyward continuously right up to the point of maximum elasticity of both the body and shoulders (complete stretch in the inverted-C) and then he begins to pull first with the right and then immediately with the assistance of the left. He did not say anything about pushing with the left first as he is stretching. I believe that the slight push from the left and the pull form the right is a natural occurance that occurs as he loads the pole as he enters the inverted-C and the pole bends on its own.

Its been very evident to me even among YOU experts that there is not even close to a consensus of whether to try to Push, Pull or do neither immediatley after plant and I am baffled about this! I state my opinion and don't even recieve a comment! I'm thinking some general concensus about a very critical area of the vault among you experts might be a good Idea? But what do I know Im just a rookie vaulter and rookie coach! LOL
No wonder the pole vaulting world is upside down (punt intended) and none have come close to vaulting like the Master for 13 years! LOL Seriously its Funny!