What does the bottom arm do????

[Andy_C]

Hi,

The more I read about this topic the more I'm actually sold on the idea. Theoretically it is quite sound.

A question on the other thread was raised on the actual results gained by utilizing this technique but I certainly understand that there are more things involved in great results than good theory. Even if they haven't been "proven" yet in terms of statistics, that doesn't mean it should not be pursued vigorously.

The only problems I actually see with this technique are functional ones (not regarding the technique itself). As in, what is the best way to teach this to somebody?

Because...

Case study; A couple of years ago Roman and I did a coaches clinic in Boone NC under the aegis of vaultman 18. Naturally he wanted to introduce his idea of the an early pull so we went to a rope and he tried to ‘teach’ people what he wanted them to do –using cues. Completely unsuccessful. I simply suggested – with no other information - that folk jumped onto the rope to swing themselves up to get their toes as high up the rope as possible. Success. However this is when I began to move towards Romans position on this issue.
Clearly this needs to be done by folk who have already mastered the basic elements of a good take off and of course can sweep their trail leg long over their head. You don’t want a double tuck and extension up the rope.

Out of all of the posts in the 4 threads going about this topic, this little snippet from altius is the one that sticks out the most for me.

I would actually like to know if there is an established methodology on teaching this technique to vaulters? Because in my mind, the idea is very good however it may be a bit user unfriendly in terms of learning. As altius mentioned, without a good foundation this bottom arm technique would not be very effective. It might even be counter-intuitive because we will be adding more complexity into training especially for new vaulters. Considering that there are many vaulters out there still struggling with basic technique, would it be wise to actually reserve the teaching of this more advanced technique for a later stage? That in turn would prove difficult because now you are trying to introduce advanced techniques fresh into a vaulter's mind - something that should have been built up to from the beginning. Or can we have our cake and eat it too? Is there a way of being able to integrate this technique right into the basic elements of the pole vault from day one? These are just open questions, I'm not really proposing anything right now (sorry, a bit sleep deprived). But I think this is the direction the conversation needs to start heading towards.

IMO, this whole lemon has been squeezed into oblivion in terms of theory. But if people have more questions that's absolutely fine - nothing wrong with more questions. Though I really think that if there is to be more progress made there should be more people going out there - try to actually do this / coach this - and then come back here to post results for feedback and debriefing.

The question, by now should be how, and so far years of arguing about the possibility prevented me from communicating actual methods I have used to teach this to athletes.

Mr. Botcharnikov, what do you think is the best approach to teaching this to a vaulter? Do you try to isolate this element as much as possible and re-integrate it into a chaining system of learning? (Pretty much like everything else, or is this different somehow?)
Do you have a set methodology of teaching to vaulters? If so, what is involved? Is there a standard progression you like to teach / have found to be effective? What are the drills involved in that?
Does it differ between beginners and advanced vaulters (do you have a working and a full training model)?

Just some questions to start off with.

-Andrew

[altius]

One of the problems in all of this is identifying athletes -apart from Bubka in my opinion - who do exploit the early pull to accelerate their whip swing.

Here is an opportunity for LOJO - a disciple of Romans - to demonstrate the potential of this aspect of technique. At the University of South Carolina he has one of the most talented young athletes I have ever seen in Angy Rummans, a freshman there. With three years to work with her, surely he can demonstrate the validity of this approach to pole vaulting!

[agapit]

One of the problems in all of this is identifying athletes -apart from Bubka in my opinion - who do exploit the early pull to accelerate their whip swing.

Here is an opportunity for LOJO - a disciple of Romans - to demonstrate the potential of this aspect of technique. At the University of South Carolina he has one of the most talented young athletes I have ever seen in Angy Rummans, a freshman there. With three years to work with her, surely he can demonstrate the validity of this approach to pole vaulting!

Dear Alan you know it is a flawed logic to evaluate validity of my claims this way, right?

[agapit]

The question, by now should be how, and so far years of arguing about the possibility prevented me from communicating actual methods I have used to teach this to athletes.

Mr. Botcharnikov, what do you think is the best approach to teaching this to a vaulter? Do you try to isolate this element as much as possible and re-integrate it into a chaining system of learning? (Pretty much like everything else, or is this different somehow?)
Do you have a set methodology of teaching to vaulters? If so, what is involved? Is there a standard progression you like to teach / have found to be effective? What are the drills involved in that?
Does it differ between beginners and advanced vaulters (do you have a working and a full training model)?

Just some questions to start off with.

-Andrew

Dear Andrew,
Thank you for your question. It is not necessary to isolate this element in the teaching vault to even a beginner, as you would not avoid this in teaching someone to vault on a rigid pole. I have done this with absolute beginners and experienced vaulters as well.

1. It is essential that first a student masters free takeoff. Without free takeoff it would be difficult to avoid resistance in the bottom arm at the takeoff while on the ground.
2. Second, a student should learn this in easy training conditions i.e. small grip and a pole that would bend slightly 30cm (a foot) or so from the chord. The bend of the pole and the grip should not be an issue at this time.

First learning stage of immediate pull action is to first learn how to avoid push/row/drive or hold of the left arm. Some vaulters really collapse left arm at the takeoff (see Bubka, Lawrence Johnson, and some other vaulters) this is not a mistake, but is done to avoid the left arm resistance and prepare the arm for the pull as soon as it is in the position to do so. If the arm resists at any time during and after the takeoff, there is simply not enough time to switch to pulling action in time due to limits of how quick we can switch from one action to the other and the delay is inevitable. The degree of collapse of the arm depends on the quality of the takeoff and the position of the takeoff foot. The better the takeoff the less collapse will occur. The flatter the takeoff or the closer (under) the foot position the more collapse will occur. You can clearly observe that this is a variable degree from jump to jump even for the same athlete.

By focusing attention on avoiding the resistance of the left arm first a coach and the athlete will become conscious of this action and if it is done in combination with jumping over the bar the athlete will form a positive feedback that the less delay (push/hold with the left arm) the better the clearance. In this exercise the best to use a bungee and instead of clearance of the bar getting “over the bar” with both feet and the rest of the body. The difference between the grip and a bungee could exceed 3 feet for beginners, 4-5 feet for intermediate vaulters and 5-6+ feet for elite vaulters. Lawrence Johnson for example went over 6.70m (22’) bungee on the competition grip, so we had to make special extensions for the standards to accommodate this and 6.10m bungee from 4 lefts!!! It would become obvious to the athlete that any sort of delay/push/row or hold with the bottom arm will not allow to go over the bar but rather leave the vaulter well under the bar.

At his stage it is important to focus attention on completing the takeoff cycle with the takeoff leg. The lack of penetration usually signals the incompletion of the takeoff cycle and early inversion because of that. So the depth of the penetration will be controlled not by delaying the swing, holding or pushing left arm but by the degree of the completion of the takeoff cycle.

When a vaulter comfortably and reliably performs this exercise without pushing or holding left arm at the takeoff the conscious pull development can begin. There are variety of exercises and settings to focus the attention and begin the development of the pull.

At that time both athlete and the coach will clearly see the intention of the vaulter to complete and accelerate the pull. For an independent observer it will not be easy to distinguish this action as some presence of the collapsing left arm and bending pole will, as it has done for many years now, mask the action.

Does this help?

[VaultPurple]

Are you sure the "backwards C position" is proper? I would argue that you should try to avoid the "C" position or any position for that matter. Positions are passive the "C" or "pocket" or whatever else. The goal should be to leave the ground and invert to hand stand push off the pole in as little time as possible without tucking

I can't agree with these statements. I think that hitting correct positions is the foundation of jumping high. Simply leaving the ground and inverting to a hand stand push off isn't possible without being in the correct positions. I feel that the vault, as a whole, is compartmentalized and the overall goal is to flow through all of the correct positions as quickly as possible. I also believe this applies to everyone from beginners to elite.

As far as the "What does the bottom arm do????" question....Absolutely, the bottom arm is pulling after take-off. But not in the sense that most people think. I don't teach the pull because I believe it's something that happens naturally. Now, there's a difference in perception on this, in my opinion. When we think of pulling, we automatically envision pulling the hands into the body. That's not the pull we're looking for and that's why I don't teach it. I perceive the pull as a downward force created through the shoulders, not the arms or hands. The more force generated, the faster the swing. The faster the swing, the faster the hips move.

Just my 2 cents.

You describe it in best terms for the athlete to understand it. The majority of the athletes you tell to pull they will screw it up. But if you teach them a natural progression and let them get the feel of a lot of things on their own, some of the things will just unfold on their own. Usually the best way to do anything is the most natural way. K-I-S-S

[altius]

"Dear Alan you know it is a flawed logic to evaluate validity of my claims this way, right? "

My view on this issue is captured in a sentence from my new book on the teaching of sport where I support my Play Practice approach, by first considering the theory that underpins it but then providing examples of coaches who employ similar methods. There I wrote,

"The views of coaches are particularly important because in their world any theory is only as good as the effective practice it leads to and the success that flows from it."

I have made my position on the left arm clear in several recent posts so I am not going to repeat it - however I am certain that few coaches will take this notion on board until there is more evidence provided by athletes who have CLEARLY been COACHED in this way. Hence my original comment re Angy Rummans - lets see what LOJO can do with her. Perhaps it would be a good idea for him to record the drills he uses and to detail exactly how he goes about the process of teaching an athlete how to vault the way he believes they should.

I am comfortable with the notion that my athletes did exploit this action -but intuitively - because of the drills they had done - not because I gave them specific instructions or cues. Perhaps LOJO can lay out the whole process with drills and cues. Of course if you resume hands on coaching -as you should - then it may be clarified even more rapidly. In my view it is certainly going to take something of this kind to convince most folk of the validity of your ideas.

[agapit]

Of course if you resume hands on coaching -as you should - then it may be clarified even more rapidly. In my view it is certainly going to take something of this kind to convince most folk of the validity of your ideas.

I have sorted my life, so I am in the position to coach again and I have started. As we continue to build things here in Knoxville along with Tim Mack, David Job, Jim Bemiller, Russ Johnson and continue to elevate Knoxville vault tradition where it would be a one of the prime destinations for collegian and post collegian athletes, as we add to existing Olympic Medals, World Championship Medals, American, Olympic and NCAA records one that we do not yet have - World Record!

I admire and appreciate your effort in writing a book (BTB) it is in my opinion the best book on the subject of pole vault ever written. I also appreciate amount of effort and time it takes to assemble material for presentation to the public. I always viewed this forum for what it is a message board. My goal is to elevate awareness and share ideas. When I have material that is suitable to post here I will, but as you know such material requires a lot of work in preparation. I have been working on a website for a while now, but it is not the highest priority at this time. The plan is to use such website as a reference point since you know how message boards get out of hand at times and it gets confusing.

Above, I described a coaching method for left arm pull development. Although simple at first site, when examining closely, requires a serious commitment in effort and time. First addressing the proper takeoff – free takeoff and then learning to recognize that left arm is in fact holding or pushing or rowing. With the main exercise I have described it would become obvious to the athlete and the coach whether there is a left arm delay that results in the inversion/swing delay and how it affects the performance in this exercise. Learning to control pole penetration by completing a takeoff cycle and not left arm push is not an easy task and may require some practice and yes additional exercises, etc. I must tell you, 6.70m (22’) bungee looks amazing when a person goes over it! I have not seen Bubka doing bungees over 6.40m, so I don’t know, but I have seen Gatauling at 6.70m over 20 years ago as well. If one get a sufficient difference between grip and a bar the exercise becomes auto corrective as I mentioned in my posts earlier.

There are numerous supporting exercises that allow for the transition, including my “funny” pole climbing drill among others. It is important for example to properly build the running step and takeoff to achieve proper degree of control to be able to make adjustments during the transition. Imitations such as plant, gymnastics drills are an essential part of the switch and enables coach to communicate the concept to the athlete, since you cannot just say pull and they pull.

So coaches that in principle understand and appreciate the beauty of the concept now should think of the methods of implementing it. I believe there would be variations by different coaches and perhaps the same methods may not work the same in every case.

I will ask if the athlete I have just started coaching would be able to come and present her perspective on this forum on her development progress. She is a post collegian, 12’9” PR, has master’s degree in sport science have been vaulting only for 3 or so years and may be a good ambassador for the model as she learns it along the way. And as other people plug in, we may be able to share more information.

[atlegu]

Hi
I really enjoy reading this conversation, and it is conversation like this that pushes things forward. Two questions to Roman: First: looking at one of the picture series in BTB, would it be possible to describe more exact were the pulling should start. Let´s say the series of Vicki Parnov at page 89. Should the pulling start immediately at picture 11-12 or later. Second: For the ""funny" pole climbing drill" is there a video on it available. I have tried to find one, but has not succeed.
Thanks
Atle

[Pogo Stick]

Second: For the ""funny" pole climbing drill" is there a video on it available. I have tried to find one, but has not succeed.
Thanks
Atle

Here is one:
http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=15362#p110661

[vaultman18]

Second: For the ""funny" pole climbing drill" is there a video on it available. I have tried to find one, but has not succeed.

Here is a video promo of Lo's camp at about 2:35 there is a clip of him doing it. It is very low intensity as he is just demoing it. I Remember him doing it during warm-ups of meets and really jumping up the pole (long pole) with his arms very fast and explosive.

http://www.lojovaultassault.com/va_videos.html

[Boog707]

I am the vaulter that Roman is currently coaching here in Knoxville. I don't typically post on here, and I'm not to keen on getting into heated discussions on technique while I'm still training and competing. But if you want to hear an athletes perspective on the learning process of this model, I do have a blog that I update regularly. I originally created it so that friends and family could keep up with my progress so I keep it fairly simple to understand. But if you want to get more technical feel free to comment or shoot me an email and I would be happy to discuss it more.

http://defyinggravity2016.blogspot.com/

I have only been vaulting a couple of years so my understanding of the event is still evolving. I first heard Roman's model at the clinic with Alan and Daniel in Boone. Back then I thought it made conceptual sense, but only now am I starting to figure out how to actually apply it physically to my vault. Obviously I am here training with Roman, so I agree with him that the bottom arm should pull immediately after take off. I think some of the confusion comes from the fact that even though you are thinking about pulling right after takeoff, it can't actually start then. There is a slight delay from when you think about pulling, to when you can actually pull.

One thing that can never be overlooked is that the way a vault looks to a spectator can be drastically different from what the vaulter is actually trying to do. And I feel like the more intensity you add to the vault, the less 'perfect' the vault looks on average. Just look at Bubka, his vaults are all about intensity from the first step to the top of the vault. And videos of his jumps contain many more mistakes than they do perfect jumps. A lot of his clearances he was able to use his strength to recover from mistakes made earlier in the system. So if he hits a massive gorgeous 'C' position after take off, is that actually what he was trying to do? Or was he more under than he wanted to be and just able to recover well and get the clearance? Looks can be deceiving.

Just my perspective. Like I said, I am learning new things everyday. Feel free to follow my blog and comment all you want. I am sure I will hear from Roman if this is a flawed understanding of the model right now.

[agapit]

I am the vaulter that Roman is currently coaching here in Knoxville. I don't typically post on here, and I'm not to keen on getting into heated discussions on technique while I'm still training and competing. But if you want to hear an athletes perspective on the learning process of this model, I do have a blog that I update regularly. I originally created it so that friends and family could keep up with my progress so I keep it fairly simple to understand. But if you want to get more technical feel free to comment or shoot me an email and I would be happy to discuss it more.

http://defyinggravity2016.blogspot.com/

I have only been vaulting a couple of years so my understanding of the event is still evolving. I first heard Roman's model at the clinic with Alan and Daniel in Boone. Back then I thought it made conceptual sense, but only now am I starting to figure out how to actually apply it physically to my vault. Obviously I am here training with Roman, so I agree with him that the bottom arm should pull immediately after take off. I think some of the confusion comes from the fact that even though you are thinking about pulling right after takeoff, it can't actually start then. There is a slight delay from when you think about pulling, to when you can actually pull.

One thing that can never be overlooked is that the way a vault looks to a spectator can be drastically different from what the vaulter is actually trying to do. And I feel like the more intensity you add to the vault, the less 'perfect' the vault looks on average. Just look at Bubka, his vaults are all about intensity from the first step to the top of the vault. And videos of his jumps contain many more mistakes than they do perfect jumps. A lot of his clearances he was able to use his strength to recover from mistakes made earlier in the system. So if he hits a massive gorgeous 'C' position after take off, is that actually what he was trying to do? Or was he more under than he wanted to be and just able to recover well and get the clearance? Looks can be deceiving.

Just my perspective. Like I said, I am learning new things everyday. Feel free to follow my blog and comment all you want. I am sure I will hear from Roman if this is a flawed understanding of the model right now.

Steph, thank you for putting your opinion out there for people. I am sure your perspective will help others to get a better understanding of what we present here. Cheers!