What does the bottom arm do????

[rainbowgirl28]

You appear to be a salesman pushing your own book every chance you get. Or were the half dozen examples i quite quickly came across a misrepresentation of the truth?

It's a really good book, you should check it out.

[gypsy]

I have. I even have my own copy. It is like an encyclopedic compilation of a lot of other peoples ideas. but it doesn't interest me because it is not his own thoughts.

[rainbowgirl28]

I have. I even have my own copy. It is like an encyclopedic compilation of a lot of other peoples ideas. but it doesn't interest me because it is not his own thoughts.

Huh. I felt like he spoke a good bit from his personal experience, particularly the beginner progressions.

[gypsy]

We had different experiences then.

Don't get me wrong. It is a valuable book especially for beginners and intermediates. I was really only having a crack at him because he had a crack at me. So when i glanced at his posts all i saw was salesmanship.

As far as a reference book for me regarding the Petrov Way, it doesn't have any value. The bigger concepts aren't present in the book.

Yet when i read through agapits manifesto a very different level of understanding is being presented. It coincides a lot with Petrov. It is not Petrov though. It is Botcharnikov. But is is very similar. Nobody else i've ever read is as similar to Petrov.

[altius]

As far as a reference book for me regarding the Petrov Way, it doesn't have any value. The bigger concepts aren't present in the book.

An interesting comment since this book introduced the notion of the flexible pole as a series of straight poles (Page 38) - a notion picked up by Peter McGinnis in his Reno lecture -but a concept although critical to understanding modern technique - had been virtually ignored until then and never to my knowledge mentioned by Petrov. Then of course it introduces the notion of the pre jump take off - an issue that is still being debated – but confirmed by direct communication with Bubka in a public forum. I also suspect the ideas on the relationship between running ability and vault performance would have been an eye opener to many.

That said BTB is indeed a compilation, interpretation and clarification of the views of others – Houvion/Krysinski/Petrov/Bubka/ Botcharnikov/ Parnov/ 'Baggett/ Cooper/ Allison/Larren and Jeremy Bailey et al and or course my own experience teaching and coaching the event for over fifty years. Virtually all technical books and writings are; it is so simple why don’t you write your own – but I believe I have challenged you to do that a couple of years ago –without any result!!!

You may find the following comments from a year or so ago interesting. They derive from the fact that I had alway tried to follow the Petrov model so that in BTB I put forward his position that after the left arm was driven back -or disengaged at take off - it followed the flexing pole. Then at the point where the pole stopped flexing, the left arm regained contact with the pole and there was a simple biomechanical response which caused the body to begin to rotate. If you read Petrov closely enough you will discover that was his view - and hence mine until I spent two weeks skiing in France with Roman. As a result of the discussions we had I went back to to review the evidence. The following is one post I put up as a result of that - unfortunately I cant find the complete post in which I detailed my changed position - will continue searching and will post it when I can do so

"Suggest you ask Roman about that because he certainly believes that Bubka represented the 6.40 model - and Roman certainly does know him. Also if you read the posts on this topic you might find one where I confirmed my belief -already stated in BTB - that after the vaulter leaves the ground their behaviour is almost completely intuitive - rather than cognitive -so it is possible that even he (Bubka) could not tell you exactly what he did after he had left the ground. In fact it may have varied with every jump depending on all of the preceding elements. Indeed we have Bubka’s almost hilarious response to Romans question "What do you think about after you leave the ground?' when he replied "The pole vault for me is RUN. TAKE OFF AND THEN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

My position on the use of the left arm changed when I returned to the notion of pole vaulting simply as stiff pole vaulting on a flexible pole. Indeed I posted a mea culpa on that topic last year to explain my view. “

However I have already suggested to Roman that his views are not likely to be generally accepted until he can demonstrate them with an athlete or athletes and detail the drills he used to get there, He is now working with an immensely talented athlete I sent him and we will see what happens.


Finally I must ask who you are coaching or have coached, because if you are really only coaching whiny junior high kids I would have thought that at this level just getting kids to run and plant effectively would be enough. So why do you need to understand and try to apply concepts that “were not dealt with in BTB? (Yes yet another plug for my book.) Concepts that many of the best coaches in the US are still debating for although I now agree with Roman, many do not –and they are not idiots – just folk doing the best for their athletes with what they believe to be true –at this point in time. Note the quote from the Talmud below.

But while you are at it can you also detail the "bigger concepts that are missing from BTB"???) Might be able to consider for the next edition!!!!

[gypsy]

ok good point i didn't explain properly.

Your reproduction of Petrov is solid in the earlier stages of learning definitely. It is just i am a little past that now. The things i'm looking at you don't talk about. Nobody talks about them outside the smallest group of people which includes Vitaly and Roman.

How do i know Vitaly is ahead of me as a coach? Of course it's obvious from the outside he is, yet to know for sure, for oneself, you need a direct experience. Vitaly, almost immediately, saw the major flaw in my thinking and corrected it. So i was convinced within 5 minutes of interacting with him. A Master Coach. Only met one other in person. Read quite a few others though. As for Roman i just really want to discuss/debate these concepts with him.

The straight pole drills and concepts? 20 years ago for me this began. The pre-jump? Sorry it's an illusion. Although it can be achieved, it can only have a negative effect on the whole. What happens in the air? Sure its not so much a conscious part of the vault. however, in order to execute the unconscious intention to accelerate away from the pole, many many hours must be spent in conscious training to achieve this. And the left arm - my opinion is still up there and you didn't respond to it. Can you please?

To be honest, if you explained yourself each time on each issue, instead of referring to your book, i would feel more credibility in you. Not that your don't have credibility, it is just that i hold the highest credibility in self experience and the explanations that come out of that experience. Like what it actually feels like to be in the space allowed for by a true free takeoff. Explanations that come from theory or from someone elses head aren't worth as much to me.

Anyway, can you critique my left arm explanation. I know there are holes in it already.

[altius]

Then why dont you describe your self experience - you feel is so important. Tell us who you coach - who you have influenced? That will make it much easier to take you seriously.

[gypsy]

Then why dont you describe your self experience

That is all i am trying to do. Speak conceptually about the sum total of my experience.

you feel is so important

Do we even need to debate the value of personal experience over academic learning? Re-read your own little quote please.

Tell us who you coach - who you have influenced? That will make it much easier to take you seriously.

There is no need for a resume - how that is relevant to anything is beyond me. I think my understanding or lack of is obvious by what i am saying. Read what i'm saying and determine things that way - through your own personal experience. Why rely on a list of achievements to point out who has quality or not?

So are you going to stand up to the challenge or not? You are an academic. Surely academic debate is right up your alley?

My statement on the role of the left arm. Please critique. That is what we should be doing here. Opening debate and discussion on actual pole vaulting.

[altius]

I suspect we have Gypsy aka Volteur aka Peter Winter or his reincarnation here - again!! Got rubbed out last time as I recall for becoming abusive.

Not at all interested in your opinion on any aspect of the vault until you provide some evidence of actually applying what you DO know to helping young athletes. Coaching is not about knowing, it is about doing - being there day in day out - actually helping young people take an interest in a sport and then assisting them to go as far as they - and you - can go. I may never have known a great deal about pole vaulting or even about athletics in general but I did do a reasonable job of introducing a few thousand to the sport over the years. Why dont you try it - you might even be good at it.

However you might find the daily grind of raising money for pads,stands,poles and travel along with dealing with recalcitrant administrators, while all the while helping young people deal with the never ending problems of life, a little bit less interesting than the painless presentation of your theories. Good luck and goodbye - not rising to the bait because everything I believe about the vault you will find in BTB or in my posts on this site.

[gypsy]

I'm afraid you have lost me. I know not whom you refer to at all. You are a very strange man. I came here to talk pole vault and suddenly this person is attacking me. A number of posts later you assume i am someone i am not.

If you can't talk pole vault with me then i'm not interested in talking to you anymore. Already my time has been wasted with your accusations and abuse. Are you the resident forum troll?

If anyone else has thoughts on actual pole vaulting i would love to chat. If this forum is nothing more than flame and bash other people then my time here is definitely over.

Alan - you have just proven yourself to be a joke. You avoid real questions and abuse people for no reason other than a bruised ego. Wake up old man, you should be wise by now.

[rainbowgirl28]

Gypsy keep it up and you'll be the one getting banned. Again? Alan does not avoid real questions, he has spent quite a bit of time answering questions here... despite having written a book which answers their questions.

There are already numerous discussions here about what the bottom arm does. This is a slightly old thread that was recently revived. You come off as being a bit of an a** which is probably why you're not getting many replies.

[gypsy]

ban me if you want

you have a slightly insane person talking to me so what is gained by that

if alan cant engage in a disucssion on pole vault then i just figure he isnt capable. It is only one small question.

he should read the talmud - his quote from it is pure hypocrisy

bye ...