What does the bottom arm do????

[KYLE ELLIS]

This is all from my experimentation I have no scientific backing to any of what I am about to say.
From my experimentation straight poling and bending the pole are different. When I straight pole over the bar there is literally no time to do anything other than takeoff and swing (pull). If you try to drive the chest or do anything that the 6.40 model talks about everything gets screwed up (at least for me). I believe in the 640 model when it comes to straight poling but when I jumps on a bending pole I have a lot more time and driving the chest up and through until I feel pressure seems to be key! I do lots of straight poling over a bar, high bar work, swinging on a rope working, many things where I have to pull like crazy and emphasize pulling. My goal is to make it that after I swing long that it does indeed turn into the same thing as a straight pole and I start pulling as soon as I feel have completed swinging long. When I do bubka’s on a high bar or swinging on a rope I can feel myself elongating during the swing and pulling with the extension, but it happens so fast that I can't really distinguish between the two, kind of similar to jumping on a bending pole. I think for me and many other vaulters the pull starts somewhere around when the hips are level to or slightly above the head.

To Tsorenson- I feel like the pull doesn’t happen until the hipsare slightly above the head, this is well after the vaulter passes the chord.
Check out this, he stays long, longer than most his jumps in this video… I am assuming for penetration purposes. Check out the jump at 1:41, this jump is evidence to me that he is not pulling prematurely… You literally can see him switch from elongating to pulling.

http://www.youtube.com/user/discgolfer5 ... QeTq1X76TM

To Altius- I have see what it looks like when a vaulter pulls with their left arm bent, and it takes a while for their arm to straighten back out (not like Bubka’s at all). I think of Agapit’s analogy of someone pulled your arm while you pull at the same time, if you start with you arm bent it would stay bent. If it started straight it would stay straight, going through an isometric contraction. For that statement to be true the left arm would have to elongate and have tension before an optical illusion could take place of a straight bottom arm.

Here is a jump up of mine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=277pMewN5I0

yeah rip into me all you want. But it’s me jumping 15’6 and 16ft with a 14ft grip. I am thinking of driving my chest forward and up, then swinging long out of it… The only passive phase I see is when I slightly tuck my legs (super hard habit to break). But I do push my bottom hand away from me through the swing. I feel like I am one of few coaches who still jump and experiment with this stuff, it has been very valuable to me.

[IAmTheWalrus]

I feel like I am one of few coaches who still jump and experiment with this stuff

I wouldn't say that. I have been experimenting with this stuff as well, however I have gotten some great results attempting to follow the 6.40 model.

See this thread: http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtop ... 39&t=21959

I think the results here are compelling as well. Again a case of short grip and in my case a soft pole, but still substantial above grip clearance. I think that its worth noting that in both cases (your videos and mine) we are inside, and this means that optimal technique on these jumps may not reflect "correct technique." Personally I don't think that you are that far off from agapit or vaultman are saying, since I think its all about minimizing (since its impossible to eliminate) things like chest drive after takeoff. Think about it this way, if you were flying down the runway at 10m/s, and took off with an aggressive slightly forward leaning posture and with a free takeoff or prejump, when the pole hit the back of the box your chest and head would move forward to fast (into the correct position) that it would seem instantaneous. Also the timing of the bend would be different, and in this case, pulls as you might, your arm would extend with the pole due to its rapid bending and a correct takeoff posture.

Now consider the opposite, slower runway speed and a very inside takeoff (like mine) in this case the pole is actively pushed up during the plant as the resistance is felt while still on the ground, and more time is needed to allow for the head and chest to penetrate forward. Additionally the arm remains bet longer because the characteristics of the bend are different. After the toe is of the ground the pole has already been bent x %.

In cases of inside takeoffs you are probably better off focusing on driving the chest up and forward, because an inside takeoff will typically try to pull your hips forward prematurely. That's why teaching young people to pull out of context is bad, they need to have mastered the takeoff first. An inside takeoff with terrible posture will make the pull dangerous; a free takeoff will make it terrific.

[VaultPurple]

It helps in the process of pole vaulting!

[IAmTheWalrus]

I was only implying that there are other coaches who experiment with technique too. I agree that its great, but disagree that he's one of the few

[vaultman18]

The 6.40 model is not exactly the petrov model. Most elements are the same but some are not.

Petrov wrote.........

Recommendations for the take-off phase:
g

2. Before the take-off leg contacts the ground the vaulter needs to create a maximum space between him and the pole.

dj

This would be the same and is necessary for immediate pull.

Petrov wrote.........

Recommendations for the take-off phase:
whereas the left/bottom arm is at right angle the pole axis.

dj

This is different in the 6.40 model this will cause the left/bottom hand to be too high.

Perhaps even the great man did not quite understand what was going on here - difficult to believe but?????

Roman has said this many times that Petrov did not fully grasp what they were discovering. And I think this is a key point that sets the 6.40 model apart. It is not a dig on Petrov but rather a compliment to Roman.

[vaultman18]

If you try to drive the chest or do anything that the 6.40 model talks about everything gets screwed up

There is nothing in the 6.40 model that advocates driving the chest. Just the opposite actually, just like stiff poling-no hang or drive.

This is all from my experimentation I have no scientific backing to any of what I am about to say.
From my experimentation straight poling and bending the pole are different.

As I said before immediate pull will not happen simply by saying "I think I will pull immediately this time". Unless you decide to devote 12-24 months of your life to training in a prescribed manner for the 6.40 model I think your results have very little weight.

What I see in the video of Kyle is - late plant, flat take-off and under step. Any of those would cause delays off the ground and all together are causing significant delays. Just because someone wants to pull doesn't mean the circumstance will allow. I would think it would take months to address and change the errors in the video.

Kyle I hope you don't take offense to my critique. Roman may see something completely different in your jumps.

[KYLE ELLIS]

Maybe it was bad grammar but I meant when straight poling there is no time to drive the chest or do anything other than takeoff and swing... I think the 640 model definately holds true to vaulting on a rigid pole. I didn't mean for it to sound like the 640 model talks about driving the chest, i know it talkjs free takeoff then pull.

Secondly I don't find any offense, how many of us can post a video that people would say "thats perfect"? I tried the 640 model for an entire year with not good results, when I went back to what Petrov teaches (chest drive & elongated swing) I had much better results. And I am not trying to perform the 640 model in those videos, I am performing more of what Petrov says. But I know I elongate first, then pull and I am jumping 2ft above my grip from a short run.

Lastly I still think it's unfair to associate the 640 model to Bubka at all because I have seen zero evidence of it in his jumps or by his coach. The Link I shared on the post before I think clearly shows that he is staying elongated for as long as possible before pulling. His coach doesn't teach pulling and now we are talking about him doing something he and his coach didn't realize? So if his coach taught him to elongate during the swing (move the arm away), and you think he is pulling, then what should we teach beginning, intermediate and advanced kids to do? How did moving the hand away turn into pulling? Also Bubka didn't achieve a pre-jump or free takeoff everytime, I have seen him jump really high being slightly under so that can't be the holy grail of the 640 model.

[altius]

" then what should we teach beginning, intermediate and advanced kids to do?"
- to do the right thing intuitively - non consciously - by doing lots of stiff pole jumps over a bar gradually increasing in height - in this way they will teach themselves - not by trying to give them cues because I for one do not have a clue WHEN the athlete should pull - perhaps it is straight of the ground.

"How did moving the hand away turn into pulling?"
The hand moves away because it is chasing the bending pole not because it is pushing - and it is possible to pull even when the arm is extending. That is what is so confusing because we usually think of the hand moving away as pushing.

Love to see your examples of Bubka jumping high even when taking off under. The only one i know of was when he won in Seoul - where as I explain in the book - he was on a third attempt -the wind went to a tail for the first time that day - he would win if he got it and finish fourth if he didnt. In that situation you could have put money on him being a bit under . And if you check the film, if the bar had been millimetres deeper he would have taken it off. It was certainly not the way he intended to jump -and it was ONLY 5.90!! According to to his own words - not those of Petrov who never talks about a pre jump - he was always aiming to be in the air for a split second before pole contact - and invariably managed a free take off. According to Roman that is the case even in the Seoul jump. However it doesnt really matter if you can find other film showing him marginally under - although I doubt you will - what matters is what he was TRYING to do.

I think it is worth remembering that a great deal of what elite sportsmen do is intuitive -non conscious - behaviour, where they could not tell you how they achieved some outstanding piece of skilled performance - "I did it and it worked" is as much as they can say. And while Petrov is a great coach - in my view the best coach in track and field - he is that - a coach. He is not a scientist or a biomechanist although he would have a good understanding of the science of what he does. let us not forget that the bio mechanists of the world are always behind the action -they never initiate it. Take a look at the story of Dick Fosbury's high jump technique if you want an example of that. One of these days they may begin to understand the biomechanics that really underpinned Bubka's technique -but I doubt I will be around to see that happen.

For those with nothing better to do than read PVP I would add that Petrov told me the story abut what happened in Seoul as he was almost having a heart attack as we sat watching Bubby no height in Barcelona. He was not coaching him at that point but was beside himself because he could not understand how Sergei could not cope with THIS situation - when four years earlier he HAD done so.

[Branko720]

I believe in the 640 model when it comes to straight poling but when I jumps on a bending pole I have a lot more time and driving the chest up and through until I feel pressure seems to be key!

Kyle Ellis

Now, I hope I'm not misquoting Roman here but he explained to me this summer that a vaulter has 1.4 seconds (roughly) to complete a jump. And the thing is you don't have time. If you try and block or stretch and delay the jump in anyway, how will you make up that time? The answer is simple, you won't. Has anyone on this board ever had a jump or coached a kid who had a jump when they "blew through" and hit the crossbar on the way up or kicked it off, but then went up a pole and couldn't quite move the pole as well, came down on the bar? Or if a practice went under the bungee? Is it possible that instead of moving up a pole you only needed to pull and get to the top of the pole quicker?

It was funny because a week before meeting with Roman I was talking with a friend about a certain high school jumper who went 17’1” last year. The kid was about 5’9” 140 and gripped 14’6” on a 15’ 170 to jump 17’1”. The kid didn’t have a great take-off and the kid wasn’t all that fast. However my buddy (who hopefully will also comment on this) mentioned he saw a similarity between this high school vaulter and Cornelius Warmerdam. Both pulled, a lot. I didn’t know what to think about it because I had been teaching kids not pull since I began coaching.

Then I met Roman, and everything changed. He gave me a great scenario. He said, “Imagine if I gave you a stick and told you to jump over a bush. What would you do?” I had the most dumbfounded look on my face. Then Roman asked, “Would you get your hands up, would you stretch?” Well think about that would you? No way. So we delved deeper and things started to make sense. Roman also told me that he expects any healthy young boy to be able to grip 15’. Keep in mind he did not say a stud, specimen, or once in a lifetime athlete. He is talking about your general high school kid who works hard.

Well that brings me back to the high school kid I mentioned earlier. He was 5’9” 140, not fast and gripped 14’6”, well his take off wasn’t great and that is why he wasn’t gripping 15’, an average healthy young boy not special. However he was pushing 3’3” (14’6”-8”=13’10” pr is 17’1”-13’10”=3’3”). That is special, but he did it because he was pulling.

Another thing Roman spoke about was the fact that guys during the stiff pole era were pushing 4’, if you did have more time on a bending pole, or if it did have some kind of catapult effect wouldn’t people be able to push 6’ then? The only thing a bending pole allows you to do is grip higher, the principles of the jump remain the same. Look at video of guys in the stiff pole era, they do not extend their hands way above their heads and they pull a lot.

[KYLE ELLIS]

To Altius- The bottom arm does move out when the pole is bent to a maximum, but it when it’s being pulled away and when it is being moved away looks completely different. And I clearly see Bubka moving his arm away! If you are pulling hard the arm will stay slightly flexed for much longer than if you move it away. Look at Isi’s jumps from early in her career, you can see she swinging her body and not really conscious of her bottom arm, so what you see is the bottom arm stay flexed for a very long time compared to Bubka’s. You can see it in people jumps when they pull, row, extend away or are passive. You are connected to the ground to be able to add energy to the system through the pole. You are connected to the pole by your hands, so when you swing there has to be a great deal of force being applied by the arms to accelerate the swing and extension (I agree with Roman on this). And Petrov taught Bubka to move his hands back out, so my question was how did that turn into pulling? When did he stop moving his hands away and start pulling, and how did such an extreme technique change just happen without both of them realizing it?? (even though I don’t believe it ever did).
And there are plenty of videos of Bubka taking off slightly under and jumping high, Bubka was the master at still getting on the tip of his toe before the pole hit even when he was a little under.
To Branko- Yes I agree straight poling or jumping over a bush, takeoff and swing is what I have found to work best for me and my athletes. But I posted my vault for a reason because I am thinking of driving my chest and swinging long and I am jumping 2ft 8inches over my grip from a short run. I don’t see any passive phases other than my slight tuck. I have proven to myself that there is time on a bending pole to complete the takeoff, swing long, and extend out of it without losing energy or being passive. Also I agree you think if someone hits a bar on the way up they pull earlier and they will penetrate less and make the bar. I agree, but that’s the whole problem because it has to be a combo of moving a high grip and getting a big push off, not one or the other. People who push the pole can grip higher but their top end sucks. People who pull right away have good push-offs but can’t move in large groups? How do we do both? That is the real question and I believe it is answered by the Petrov model and not the Roman model. I have my kids straight pole over a bar every other week from 3 steps. I had a freshman kid that almost jumped 18ft that was just not very good at straight poling over a bar. I don’t know if it was a strength issue, timing issue, or what… But the way it worked out last year is that my lowest jumping kid straight poled the highest. So straight pole and bending are different, I believe if you continue to get better at straight poling it will improve your bending pole jumps. I think people get away from straight poling because it’s hard and it takes a lot of strength to be good at it, but it’s valuable.
I am amazed at how many people believe in a model we have no proof of, and believe in a coach that didn’t coach Bubka. We take his word over Bubka’s actual coach. I study tons of film and I just don’t see it, anybody care to analyze the link of Bubka I posted earlier? What about any of my questions from earlier? It’s almost like religion, we watch Bubka’s jump and talk theory and make it into whatever we want with no real proof.
You say his pole is bending away and that’s why his arm straightens, yet I watch Isenbeyeva and it looks very different (There was even a video talking about her pushing more with the bottom arm, and you could see that in WR jump 5.06, and everyone was confused by what she was saying). And you could see it more in her swing. You say it’s because he hits a free takeoff, but I see the same action even when he takes off a little under. You say he pulls but I see his hand move forward and up early!, and every single person that I watch and know is pulling their arm stays flexed for a while then moves out as the pole bends to a maximum.

[altius]

Scepticism is the mother of progress - so keep on questioning old son.

[KYLE ELLIS]

Scepticism is the mother of progress - so keep on questioning old son.

I just want everyone to know I respect their opinion and I have come along way before I joined this message board and have learned and changed my stance on things a lot. The 640 model may exist, I might not see it yet. I hope none of you don't take any offense to me arguing with you. I don't take any offense to what people say to me