What does the bottom arm do????

[tsorenson]

Trust me, Kyle, I can relate to your questions and that is why I am on this forum. I don't know if Agapit's ideas are right for everyone, but I personally want to understand what the 6.40 model is about. I respect your knowledge of the vault and your desire to learn more, and I don't ever get offended by any of your comments, only engaged and interested. Mostly because I come from a background in vaulting very similar to what you describe. I have watched many of your vaults and you are obviously a very good athlete, and very dialed with the technique you use. The heights and grips speak for themselves, but I do notice that you can't seem to get your step outside 11'. This is your limiting factor for exploring the 6.40 model and Petrov's technique.

I have tried to explain my interpretation of the 6.40 model as best as I can, mainly that YES, there is a push included as a part of the takeoff, and a re-engagement of the shoulder girdle, but that you want to transition into the pull as soon as possible to speed up the swing. Things are happening so quickly at the plant and swing that any delay will keep you from covering the pole and cause you to swing under the pole instead of over it, and then you have to play catch-up (tucking). In my opinion your tuck is so hard to get rid of because it is related to your under takeoff and subsequent prolonged drive phase. There is no point in trying the 6.40 model if you haven't mastered the carry/drop/plant well enough to have a free takeoff.

I have experimented with this model with some success, although it works a lot better when you can get a free upward takeoff, which is hard to accomplish all the time. I have spent years working on getting my under step fixed, with some success, but I am a coach and masters vaulter, so there's no hurry. I will put up some video when I get a chance so that you can critique my vaulting as well. But I am definitely one of the few coaches that does vault and experiment, like yourself.

Tom

[Branko720]

I know how Kyle feels. If someone had told me about the 6.40 model before I was ready I wouldn't have been convinced either. Also I had tried implementing pulling as Roman described on the board without his plant mechanics and the results were mixed. However once I learned Roman's plant mechanics and some of his progressions it changed everything. One the plant is less complicated and then it aids in the pull as well. You cannot just try pulling. Also I would like to note that the video of your jumps Kyle are a little under and the take off is flat, but it does look like to me that you pull and go up the pole as quickly as possible. I do not see the chest drive you are speaking of. And the interesting thing about stretch at take-off and chest drive is I used to coach it so much, but when I look back at my best jumpers and their best days, they had little chest drive and were pulling. It may have happened by accident and it might have been a product of stiff pole jumping so it just happened as Alan is explaining; however, now that I am focusing on the free pole drop and the pull my vaulters are achieving better results more often.

[PVDaddy]

The most important question that has ever been addressed without consensus reached on this forum!

I believe the Petrov model of Pole vaulting, as performed by Bubka, is as close to perfection as one can aspire to attain as an ideal form. Within that model as performed by Bubka there exist a flawless transfer and build up of energy as one progresses through the various stages of the vault. The reason I say " As performed by Bubka", is because there are very important elements of his vault that have not been stated in Petrov's model and these missing elements have to do with the use of the bottom hand.

After studying his vaults a countless thousand times it is clear to me that there is a definite both pull and push action of his bottom hand and both add energy to the vault. The question then that one must ask is when is the appropriate time to pull and when is the appropriate time to push?

I believe that the very thought of pulling or pushing with the bottom hand should not even be considered until one has attempted to execute a perfect run up, pole drop, plant, and free take off (and all the elements that includes such as the jump and drive knee) out of the stretched inverted "C" position and that the major emphasis at this stage of the vault is the has got to be the whipping action of the trailing leg.

The appropriate time to pull (this is were i see Bubka initiate it) would be as one approaches the point of bending at the hips (pulling prior to this would be counter productive and counter intuitive as it would slow the whip) and it continues through inversion and the hips and legs are propelled upward at which time the bottom hand pull is seamlessly transferred now into a downward push toward the pit much the same way as the top hand does albeit in the opposite direction with the wrist bent.

[Branko720]

Why do you want to get into an inverted C position? Do you achieve this on a rigid pole?

[coachjvinson]

Why do you want to get into an inverted C position? Do you achieve this on a rigid pole?

The inverted C position results from the differences in the moment of inertia which are a direct result of the differences in the properties of the two poles. The rigid pole is relatively static at plant and impact while the flexible pole buffers at impact: hence, the resulting variations not only in body position but in the opportunity to increase swing velocities as a result.

[PVDaddy]

Agapit,

I am confident that you are on the right track toward coaching a new WR athlete with your emphasis on perfecting the ideal use of the bottom arm in the Pole vault or at the very least contributing to developing an improved method that will enable another coach to help their athlete achieve it. There is no doubt that the bottom arm adds energy to the vault and speed up inversion time putting the vaulter out ahead of the recoil of the pole! I believe that if the pole vaulting world stays on this track they will see a new WR in a relatively short time.

I hope that you do not find it insulting that a pole vaulting nobody is encouraging you to maintain the course!

Food for thought: What is the best time to begin the bottom arm pull and why? My thought was that pulling would have the greatest impact at the moment just prior to the hips breaking and that one is not in a correct bio-mechanical position to apply the pull until they have reached this point in the whip. I also felt that pulling prior to this position might affect (distract) the athletes ability to perform the all important whipping action out of the stretched inverted C. Does the athlete have the ability to whip and pull at the same time in this position? If they do at this time,does it add to the speed of inversion?

If I was swinging back and forth on a rope and my right arm was let's say three feet higher than my left arm and and my right knee was was up and i was using my left leg to create momentum for the swing and i was still not quite out of the back swing (like you are in the inverted C), at what point would I begin pulling on the rope if my goal was to get my legs over my head as quickly as possible?

I think I would take advantage of the pre-stretched leg as a whip, to create maximum inertia to throw my legs up, which of course would make the pull much less difficult (Most efficient), especially at the point when my hips are bent ,because now I am not even having to pull the weight of my legs (They are already up!). At this point I am only pulling the weight of my hips and does not the counterweight of my back and head as they drop back assist in the propulsion of hips and legs skyward along with the extra energy added by the pull?

Could a simple rope be used as a training tool to teach a vaulter when and how to pull?








"Hearing ears will hear and those that do, will make believers out of the doubting Thomas's, that must see,in order to believe. But the true credit belongs to the inventor, the man capable of critical thinking, who applies Scientific means toward perfecting his art!" Author Me LOL

[Maccus]

This is my first post and all though I am not yet an elite vaulter I just wanted to thank-You PV Daddy for your excellent recommendation of when to begin the pull with the bottom arm. I had been trying to pull early all season long trying to increase my trail leg speed with limited success. After reading your post about focusing on the whip of my leg and then pulling when my hips break, I have been vaulting so much better!

I am for the first time getting out ahead of the pole and my push has increased tremendously!

I just set a new PR! Twice on the same day (first I broke through the 16 ft. barrier and then I cleared 16,3)!
Are you going to finish your Agenda 21?

[altius]

Just wish PVDADDY had shared his ideas with the rest of us. He kept saying he was going to but never did so - how did you find out about them?

[rainbowgirl28]

Having multiple accounts is against the rules of this website. Maccus = PV Daddy and is banned from the site.

[coachjvinson]

Having multiple accounts is against the rules of this website. Maccus = PV Daddy and is banned from the site.

Thank you for confirming that which was ODDLY APPARENT...

[altius]

Silly me - how trusting and naive can you be???? But if we can get to the truth of the matter somehow re what the bottom arm does or does not do I don't care how we get there.

[rainbowgirl28]

Silly me - how trusting and naive can you be???? But if we can get to the truth of the matter somehow re what the bottom arm does or does not do I don't care how we get there.

Then why don't you and PV Daddy share your thoughts via email and you can get back to us. I have zero tolerance for people who create fake accounts and make up stories to try and support themselves. I'm sure there are plenty of other message boards where that sort of thing is allowed.