one in a million?

[KYLE ELLIS]

I thought I'd share this because I've never seen this before. Most if not all vaulters have a problem with being under at times. Have you ever wondered if there was someone out there that had the opposite problem, and always takes off out? Well I have found that rare person and she jumps for me, I think this is her 4th year to be vaulting. She started her junior year in high school I believe. Anyways she will shorten or stutter her last steps to still takeoff out, occasionally she will take off close to on. This has been a real problem because she will chop her steps down and lose speed at the end to takeoff out, also her jump get's very "disconnected" sometimes. This jump is on a 13ft pole with a bungee at 13ft, this isn't to bad with an 11ft takeoff. Sometimes she takes off at 12ft!
Has any other coaches had athletes that do this? Also I am not a believer in a pre-jump takeoff, I want them to be rolling off the takeoff foot as the pole hits the box.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uT6RKO ... e=youtu.be

[altius]

May be one in a million if you don't try to teach it - as you obviously don't - but we have always had athletes who pre jump on occasion and are almost always out at take off -because we work for it. In fact I suggest that every vaulter -no matter how good they are should use the pre jump drill on the grass on a regula basis. Even if you don't pre jump off your full run - this drill really focus you on driving the hands high at task off to optimise the pole ground angle AND it helps develop an up springing take off.

That said my eyes are seeing a perfect take off leading into a pretty sound vault in every respect. In fact i would be very happy to claim her as one of my athletes from a technical point of view. My only comment -and dont let your athlete see this - she looks a bit chubby to me. perhaps she is just on a soft pole that won't straighten fast enough.

I

[KYLE ELLIS]

I thought you would like this jump Altius. And she does do somethings very well. And like I said this particular jump wasn't as out as she is sometimes.
I agree pre jumps can be good drills, and we do them. But there are some big issues with taking off like this.

[VaultMarq26]

Kyle,

I would think as long as you feel she isn't loosing speed with the decreased stride length, there wouldn't be a huge push to move her step.

Her takeoff angle looks fine as well.

I would agree with you that an athlete taking off that far out is not common.

[CoachEric]

This is awesome. She must be a great athlete!

I agree with you, Kyle, that a pre-jump is not as correct as being on. Perhaps if she created more space with the left arm at takeoff and really made an effort to push the pole toward the back before going elastic, she might feel more connected to the pole and get a sense of pushing the pole from the ground. It certainly doesn't look like a quick fix.

[KYLE ELLIS]

Vaultmarq, she does lose a lot of speed to chop her steps down. I think she is athletic enough that she should be vaulting 14ft.

Coacheric, I think in her mind it's like jumping onto a rope, she literally jumps onto the pole. And if you jump onto a rope or a pole your going to pull down and tense to feel connected.

I have tried everything, and can do it well with a slide box drill. I've tried to even teach her to block up with her arms because I thought it would be easier to teach her the right way from there. All my kids that block out in highschool are pretty easy fixes. We just have to get this notion of jumping onto the pole out of her head. Which is difficult so far.

I am going to have her do some drills over the summer and try to "reset" her brain. We'll see. I've never in my life dealt with this problem. So I thought I'd share in case anyone else has.

[KirkB]

I am going to have her do some drills over the summer and try to "reset" her brain. We'll see. I've never in my life dealt with this problem. So I thought I'd share in case anyone else has.

I see some aspects of my own technique in her vault - especially her TERRIFIC JUMP IMPULSE on takeoff. I agree that there's some inefficiencies in taking out too far out, but you wouldn't want her to be discouraged from her JUMP IMPULSE. Getting a little closer to a free takeoff (without the pre-jump) would be better tho. I know that YOU know why, but I'll expand on this a bit later for other readers.

In my view, she's not THAT far out that she needs a major "brain reset". It's actually better in a lot of ways than being under. It may be that we're just not used to seeing this so-called problem, because (as you say) it's usually the opposite problem - the problem of being under. So our eyes may be deceiving us into thinking that this is a bigger problem than it really is.

I would also caution you on trying to get her to make major changes - especially since she's already vaulted for 4 years. Even if she agrees that she wants to fix this, her muscle memory will resist it (as you've already found out).

... this is her 4th year to be vaulting. ... she will shorten or stutter her last steps to still takeoff out, occasionally she will take off close to on. This has been a real problem because she will chop her steps down and lose speed at the end to takeoff out ...

THIS is obviously a problem, but I think it can be dissected as a distinct problem from the issue of her takeoff point. No matter if your target takeoff is under, on, or out, you MUST not chop or stretch your steps "too much". This is common sense that applies to ANY vaulter with ANY takeoff technique.

... also her jump get's very "disconnected" sometimes. This jump is on a 13ft pole with a bungee at 13ft, this isn't to bad with an 11ft takeoff. Sometimes she takes off at 12ft! ... Has any other coaches had athletes that do this?

Yeh, me!

I will ignore the 12-foot takeoff issue, as I think that's a chopping/stretching issue that's separate. BTW, I see her stretching (not chopping) in the vid, coming down far too flat-footed on her takeoff foot.

On the vid takeoff (11 feet), this "gap" may be the biggest issue she has - even more so if she's sometimes a foot further out. The way I solved this in MY vault was to reach/stretch forwards (and upwards) with the top arm (and obviously the other arm too, but the emphasis was with the top arm), and at the same time stretch the trail leg BACKWARDS. I'm not suggesting that she should emulate my technique, but perhaps there's something that you can glean from my personal experience here.

Reaching upwards AND forwards with the arms (and consequently the chest) "fills that gap" so she won't be as disconnected. And reaching the trail leg BACKWARDS is basic physics - every action has an equal and opposite reaction. So if she strives to reach upwards and forwards with her upper body, her lower body should quite naturally reach backwards (something you can't prevent even if you tried).

If you remember my Bryde Bend thread, you will recall that reaching the trail leg back also had another good advantage - that it set up your body posture for a very good angle to start the kick/whip/downswing (whatever you prefer to call it). But I'm not preaching or promoting that here - I'm just mentioning it as an incidental positive side effect. More importantly, she should reach forwards/upwards to "fill that gap".

BTW, her body angle is GOOD (VaultMarq has already noted), but her trail leg swing is still too slow - she needs to speed that up.

I point out these OTHER technical flaws simply to show that in relation to her "out" takeoff issue (the 11' issue - not the 12' issue), there's several other WORSE aspects of her vault that could and should be worked on too.

Also I am not a believer in a pre-jump takeoff, I want them to be rolling off the takeoff foot as the pole hits the box.

I agree. Let's review why ...

1. Gravity pulls you down the moment you leave the ground. So the longer you're in mid-air (disconnected from the ground AND from the pole when IT'S hit the box), the more inefficient this gravitational pull will be on your body. It's not so bad with her at the 11 foot takeoff shown in the vid, but if you can imagine it at 12 feet (or to exaggerate, say 13 feet), you can realize that she will SINK too much. The key to a good vault is to ALWAYS be moving in an UPWARDS direction! Anything else is passive!

2. Decelleration begins the moment you leave the ground. So the longer you're in the air (even when connected to the ground via the pole), the more you decellerate. Yes, you can add a BIT of energy to the system once you leave the ground, but leaving that aspect out of this discussion, decelleration is bad. This is distinct from decelleration caused by gravity - I'm referring here to decelleration caused by no longer having a jump impulse from your takeoff.

3. The "gap" can cause you to shrug your shoulders (with resultant energy loss), if they're not strong enough to absorb the impact of the pole hitting the box smoothly. For any female vaulter, I would guess that this would be even more of an issue than with a male.

Perhaps if her brain understands WHY too much of a pre-jump is inefficient, then she will be more receptive to striving for more of an "on" takeoff?

Kirk

[rainbowgirl28]

Yeah I had a HS boy like that last year. I didn't teach it to him, he had 3 coaches before me and just naturally took off out.

[KYLE ELLIS]

I realize my mistake with using one of her better jumps to make some of these points.

Kirk, I agree in this video that she reaches a little on the last step, but she shortens her strides coming into those last 3 steps quite a bit... Putting herself out.
And you are right, I am not going to try to teach her to be under to over compensate. I do have my kids do pre-jump short straight pole and drills like that to work on being free for those kids who struggle being under. The best drill I have found for her is having her do slide box drills with a little bit of resistance from 6 total steps, she does those pretty well and it looks different. Just can't put that same feeling on a pole yet.

And she has only been vaulting for years, so she is a newbie still. Shouldn't be hard to make changes. My sophmore year in college I had been vaulting since the 6th grade, so she is much better off. haha

I didn't understand your dismissal of her taking off at 12ft? 11ft is out so just imagine what it's like when she takes off at 12. 10'4 would put her coming off her toes as the pole hits. I recruited her as a walk on because I watched her jump in high school and she was taking off at 12ft, so I thought if I could correct some of her issues she could be pretty good. She tends to lose speed to takeoff out, and is pulling and tight before the pole even hits the box. if we can fix these issues I think she could jump on her 7left poles from 4lefts. I have two girls that have a ton of talent, that if we can fix a few issues can jump really high! And guess one of the biggest issues with the other girl is that she takes off under.

[KirkB]

I realize my mistake with using one of her better jumps to make some of these points.

No, I think it's always best to show the athlete's BEST jump, then discuss and progress from THERE. I suppose you could choose her TYPICAL jump, but that wastes discussion time on how to get from TYPICAL to BEST - which you've already accomplished (but perhaps not consistently) with her.

I didn't understand your dismissal of her taking off at 12ft? 11ft is out so just imagine what it's like when she takes off at 12. 10'4 would put her coming off her toes as the pole hits. ...

I only ignored the 12 foot takeoff because I am assuming that to get from 12 feet to 11 feet (which she did in the vid), you/she already figured that out. Perhaps by luck, but more likely by fixing the chopping/stretching of strides. So becuz fixing a chopping or over-striding problem is a very common issue to solve (no matter where you take off from), I ignored that issue. I see it as unrelated to your main question about her takeoff.

Maybe what's missing is getting her to CONSISTENTLY take off at 11 (or thereabouts), then progress down towards 10'4" from there? If you're trying to do it all in one fell swoop, it may be more difficult (becuz you may be mixing 2 disparate issues) so maybe if you solve them one at a time?

YOUR target takeoff point for her is apparently 10'4", but what is HER target takeoff? Is she happy with 11'0", or does she want to be somewhere further in or further out? Part of the "brain reset" process that you refer to (if even necessary) is to adjust her thinking to what is OPTIMAL for her situation, but her opinion of what's optimal may be different than yours. So where does SHE want to take off from?

I just thought if the physics of why an out takeoff was sub-optimal could be explained to her (in terminology that she would comprehend and accept as "yeh, that makes sense to me"), that would be the first step in bringing her to the realization that she's taking off too far out - even at 11 feet.

Kirk

[altius]

Interesting . I am not going to try to dissect her technique -as I said I would be pretty happy with it but then what do I know?

But I am going to pose the question, If there are all these problems with the pre jump - why did Bubka state that he was ALWAYS trying to achieve a take off where he was in the air - if only by a few hundreds of a second - what I termed a pre jump in 1989 after talking with Petrov in 1985 - every time he jumped? I have the specific quote that he made at the presentation he did in Jamaica in 2002. I just hope nobody is going to tell me that Bubka didn't know what he was doing or why he did it -because he clarified that as well in that presentation. In fact it is interesting to compare the precision with which he described his take off, with the AAAAAAARGH he used to describe what he did after he left the ground.

I believe most sensible folk believe in the advantages of a free take off - where the pole is not loaded until the athlete leaves the ground - I see a free take off as a failed pre jump. That is certainly the feeling I was left with after talking with Sergei.

Yes of course you will have problems if you jump ON TO the pole - but for all the reasons I have presented over the years you will not have problems if you drive up THROUGH the pole. You will ensure a better take off. Even an attempt to pre jump will benefit your jump. It is simply a question of the direction of the take off impulse. I suspect you need to take another look at the biomechanics of this Kirk - but I am not going there in this post.

Again if you are coaching you have a better handle on this - what are the root causes and what are the solutions. At the present time I have a young vaulter who is jumping ON TO the pole. He has always had a tendency to do this and last year in an extreme take off he broke a pole. What I see is that the problem occurs whenever he lets the right arm move forward in the final stages of the plant so that his arms tend to lead the chest up and forward and this in turn encourages an early jump - on to the pole. What we are trying to do is remind him on every plant drill - and we do them every session -walking -through to sprinting - that the right arm must be covering the ear at the instant he leaves the ground - It must never be ahead of that position. In that way he might achieve a pre jump up through the pole. But changing movement patterns and solidifying the new one is a difficult process.

[KirkB]

I am not going to try to dissect her technique -as I said I would be pretty happy with it but then what do I know?

OK, so for this vaulter, I take it then that your target/optimal takeoff point is 11-0? Or maybe even out further? How much further?

But I am going to pose the question, If there are all these problems with the pre jump - why did Bubka state that he was ALWAYS trying to achieve a take off where he was in the air - if only by a few hundreds of a second

To answer your specific question (which I've answered before on PVP), my take on this is that every jump is a one-off, and IMHO it's better to be a bit out than a bit under. So to err on the safe side (so that the vast majority of all jumps aren't under), I prefer to be a bit out.

To be specific (only fair, since I'm asking you to be specific), I'd say by 2-3 inches. On average, not so much that you'll feel a jolt when the pole hits the box, but not so little that you can't fully stretch your top arm up before the pole hits.

What I have NOT heard yet is by HOW MUCH Bubka/Petrov recommend a pre-jump? 8 inches? A foot? Further? Just trying to quantify this, so that we're all on the same page. Having a "pre-jump" (or not) is not a binary question - there's varying degrees to HOW MUCH of a pre-jump is best (in each person's opinion - including Bubka's).

That's actually the question that I posed to VP and his girl.

I believe most sensible folk believe in the advantages of a free take off - where the pole is not loaded until the athlete leaves the ground - I see a free take off as a failed pre jump.

OK, but are you talking about a single inch, or a foot or more?

And other than "because Bubka said so", what is the scientific rationale behind your opinion? You can defer to PVStudent on this question if you like, and he MAY have already answered it in one of his long threads on PVP recently - I'm not sure.

Even an attempt to pre jump will benefit your jump. It is simply a question of the direction of the take off impulse.

Agreed.

AND the rationale for WHY a pre-jump is better than a free takeoff.

I suspect you need to take another look at the biomechanics of this Kirk - but I am not going there in this post.

I can appreciate that you don't want to "go there", and neither do I. We've already had a few rounds at this debate, with not much clarification of the problem - let alone any solution to it. But I do think it's rather unfair of you to criticize my biomechanics, but refuse to explain why (or to offer your own biomechanics).

I'm not criticizing your biomechanics either, but I am asking for clarification on how much of a pre-jump you recommend? My apologies if this question has already been asked and answered. It may be hidden deep in BTB2 - my bad if it is.

If it is, just give me the page #, and I'll look it up.

Kirk