Russian Style Pole Vaulting..

[altius]

Vault fan -you got me! I didnt mention how the pole should be planted the pole in the box because i basically took it as a 'given' -that was a mistake because clearly it is not a 'given'. However the placement of the pole tip in the box should be the same with any technical model. The critical thing is that it does slide and does NOT hit the back wall of the box first. This can cause a lot of problems especially if it hits high and then drops as the vaulter comes onto the pole. We teach an aiming point approximately 15 cms from the back wall - this gives the vaulter the time they need - small as it is - to prepare for the pole to hit the back of the box.

This issue will be dealt with in our DVD which is being prepared to support
From beginner to Bubka. Not sure if it will ever get finished though.

Thanks for the heads up.

[USMC Vaulter]

This issue will be dealt with in our DVD which is being prepared to support
From beginner to Bubka. Not sure if it will ever get finished though.

Cant wait for that to come out.

[altius]

Vaultninja -sorry i have nt got back to you yet re the article i said should be 'destructed'. After sending off my reaction to the journal it was published in, I put the original article to very good use! Now I have another copy i will select just a couple of items to make the point - should have that to you by next week. However I am not going to repeat my original three page analysis - which has vanished into the ether.

Thought for the week "Wisdom can come from anywhere, any time and in any language" - but unfortunately not from everybody!

[OUvaulterUSAF]

My idea of the supreme effeciant vault was tim mcmicheal i doubt very many people on this board ever saw him jump, pat manson and chad harting were very good as well.

Kyle, I've seen TM jump.

and what do u think???

For such a short non-athletic looking guy he definitely gets all he can out of the pole.

[ladyvolspvcoach]

To throw a little fuel on the fire....back in the day..who did the Russian vaulters look up to?????

Does Mike Tulley ring a bell??? I got this from a Russian vaulter/coach who was there! So would we say that the Russian technique is an evolution of the American way of vaulting???

Just a thought!!

[altius]

LadyVolsCoach - Have seen very little film of Tully so have no idea how his technique MIGHT have influenced petrov -although from what he has said I doubt it happened - although i am sure the Soviets respected any vaulter of his ability and performance level.

In the evolution of his ideas Petrov does give a lot of credit to a US vaulter - but it was the methods of Cornelius Warmerdam the world record holder of the 1940's who vaulted on 'stiff' poles, which definitely influenced his thinking on technique. However you would be drawing a very long bow to claim Petrov got his ideas from fibreglass vaulters in the US!

In fact his great achievement was to step back from the herd of that time and with help from other coaches, biomechanists and gymnastic coaches, used a critical analytical methodology to reinvent technique for the vault. See my paper "Bubka, Unique,a one off? Or did he represent a generic technical model", on - beginnertobubka.com/net which i believe clarifies this.

However if you are correct -what does that say about US coaches of that time? They had day to day access to Tully -why did they not build on his methods to create the equivalent of the Petrov model?

Thought for the week - Wisdom can come from any place, any time and in any language.

[altius]

Vaultninja- Two points. The first picks up a statement you made some time ago -get over bubka - you cant vault like him? Why not? A lot of other vaulters can and have mastered elements of his technique - including 15 year old girls jumping 3.80. But also including Tarasov, markov ,Gibilisco, Isinbyeva,Feofanova etc etc.

Also without a technical model - which provides you with a template -how do begin to work out what you are doing right or wrong -do you base it on'your feelings' or the height you jump that day? I note your tag - Obviously the notion of individual 'style is important', but perhaps if Toby did it a bit more like Bubka -especially re the lead leg - he might roll back to cover the pole faster, get more recoil and perhaps even jump higher!!??

Second point - Re the article you wanted me to destruct. I have had another look at it and i can sum it up this way. It represents what the English author Kingsley Amis in his satirical novel about University life, "Lucky Jim", called 'Research which is a psuedo study of a non problem".
However to sum up the authors 13? page paper - he states that the only benefit of the flexible pole is that is permits a lower angle take off and reduces energy loss at take off. According to him there is no benefit from the shortening of the pole as it flexes and no 'catapulting' action from the pole. You are free to believe what you like.

[USMC Vaulter]

According to him there is no benefit from the shortening of the pole as it flexes and no 'catapulting' action from the pole. You are free to believe what you like.

Ok - so here is something that I dont get.
Why CAN'T you compare a pole vault pole to a catapult. The pole does exactly that. Think about what a catapult is and how it works. You store energy into it, and it returns the energy quickly to launch something. If the pole didnt have the ability to give you a return of the energy you put into it, you would not see the push offs that you see today.

I definitely dont agree with the concept of 'the only benefit of a flexible pole is that you can hold higher/use longer poles', because that's bull sh--. Look at the pictures and images of stiff pole vaulter - how much of a push off are they getting on the top end? Have a vaulter invert himself on a rope or verticle pole and turn and push off. Now compare that with the push offs of many elite vaulters - Bubka, Tarasov, Hartwig, Toby, whoever you want -you will see nowhere near the amount (with a stiff pole or stationary) as you do in a vault with a flexible pole. The pole's ability to transfer horizontal energy into verticle is definitely advantageous to the vaulter.

Now I understand the need to be cautious with how you explain what the pole is doing and how to exploit it, but the word catapult works just fine if you explain it correctly. All you have to do is relay that a catapult required alot of energy input in order to get the return it gave, and that you can't be passive during any phases of the vault. Piece of cake. In Beginner to Bubka, it seems to bash this idea, but ONLY in conjuction with the issue of emphasizing maximum bend of the pole and passively waiting for a return on that energy.

As I've stated many times in the past - when refering to termonology problems like this, you're getting into semantics - which isnt necessary. Neither myself nor any of my vaulters have ever emphasized bending the pole over 'moving' the pole, nor do we practice or preach any passive phases in the vault - yet we use the term 'catapult' all the time.
Also - when refering to viewing the vault as an 'infinite series of straight poles of varying lengths' (taken from BTB)- that may be true when thinking of the biomechanics involved with the athletes body and the vault - however, ask any pole manufacturer, and they will be glad to tell you that the pole is doing alot of work (due to the energy the athlete put into it of course) to bend and roll smoothing while recoiling back to the straigh position - which is an action that very much resembles a catapult. Just look at the videos I posted on the Shoe Vault - we bent the pole (stored energy), attached a shoe and released that energy - the shoe went VERY high. The energy IS THERE. To say that a human body reacts differently to that SAME energy return is just not possible - this is simple physics - its all just mass. To say that there is no additional energy that the pole is giving, or I guess better to say 'returning', at the end of the vault, is simply not true.

While the pole is on the way down in this picture (so a slight allusion of a larger pushoff is there) You still cannot tell me that Bubka or anyone else could get this kind of push off on a stiff pole.

[altius]

Hey slow down USMC. i didnt say that I I I I didnt believe in a catapult effect. You are right -you only have to look at any great modern jumper and you can see that effect. What i said was that the AUTHOR OF THE PAPER IN QUESTION said that - and in my view its a load of you know what -as is the entire paper in my view. i suggest you read it to see what i mean.

Re my idea of thinking of an infinite series of stiff poles - this is just one way of explaining what is happening from a biomechanics point of view. I took a chance with the concept because as far as I know no one has ever tried to explain it like that -perhaps Im wrong -but i dont think so.

Of course the strain energy is stored in the pole - but the chord of the pole IS the biomechanical pole as it flexes. As you will see from the second? article on my site -basically 'Bubka and the bicycle pump' the chord behaves like a pump and if it is compressed too early instead of in a continuous chain of energy, it will react early and kick the vaulter before they have moved into position where they are safe..

[USMC Vaulter]

Hey slow down USMC. i didnt say that I I I I didnt believe in a catapult effect. You are right -you only have to look at any great modern jumper and you can see that effect. What i said was that the AUTHOR OF THE PAPER IN QUESTION said that - and in my view its a load of you know what -as is the entire paper in my view. i suggest you read it to see what i mean.

Hahaha - sorry, my bad. Sometimes I'm reading so many posts I forget the context or miss things.

Also - I still agree with your 'shortening/lengthening poles' example for the biomechanics of the vault - I think you're definitely on to something there.

I genuinely hope that my post didnt come off as an attack - it was just a cumulation of thoughts of things I've been reading that I decided to voice. If anything, I hope you take it as a compliment - I take a great deal of time going over and over the book and thinking about everything in it as much as possible. My only goal is to become the best vaulter and coach that I can - and Beginner to Bubka is definitely pushing me in the right direction.

[altius]

USMC - Never saw it as an attack -I respect your enthusiasm and commitment so i knew it was a simple misunderstanding of the way i had put it in my post - I also knew i should have clarified it before i submitted but was a bit careless.

Appreciate your comments re the book - I hope folk realise that it was just my best try - I know it is definitely not perfect! As I indicated in the book 'the day a book goes to the printers is the day it needs rewriting' - hence my articles on 'btbweb' to try to further clarify issues.

However I must say that it is a bit scary to commit your ideas to paper and put them out for the world to examine! Especially when you have paid for the printing with an overdraft!

This forum is a great opportunity to clarify,further explain -perhaps defend - stuff i did not do a good job with - material which was revolutionary and where i was taking a chance. BUT This is how we move forward.

[dj]

altius, agapit, ladyvolspvcoach and all...

i don't know if i coach the way this might sound..

but ultimately i go from

how to run without the pole .....to how to run with the pole...

from how to plant/takeoff without the pole ...from how to take-off with the pole...

from how to swing without the pole....... to how to swing with the pole...

there is a lot of things along the way.. on the run i "say"

come out of the back.. get your feet down.. and plant big!!!!.

what is planting big? obtain the "iron cross" position with some authority.. my "iron cross" position is what some call a "free" take-off/prejump.. i call it the "transfer of momentum"... toe under the top hand.. top hand fully extended, a little "punch" UP from the front arm and extend both arms high and higher..

swing? just swing... fast..hard and on the runway side of the pole...completely.... on the runway side of the pole.. turn and all.

when training is done we go to competition and think.. run ..plant.. swing
then it's my job to keep their run on.... and the right pole with the grip..

i even had one vaulter that started to ask a question at the state meet one year... he stopped in mid sentence .. did a thumbs up and yelled up to me in the stands.. just pole vault!!! turned and went down the runway and preceeded to clear the bar..

; )

now here is a "book" of notes i have written.. strip'um .. rip'um and fire back...............

Addressing some of the Pole Vault Manifesto along with Technique…
Hopefully these writings, written separate but combined, will not be repetitive, contradictory or confusing..

Aunt Minnie used to say “if you don’t stir the pot from time to time some of the good stuff might get left on the bottom.â€Â