Mid Mark Chart

[dj]

master.. absolutely close enough.. the chart is not designed to make us over think.. really.. run ...plant....swing

[higherflyer]

I have had the great honor of working with dj and the mid mark chart.
I have seen him prove his chart over and over and have been using his chart for several years. A lot of the passion I have for the pole vault I owe to dj. What he has taught me throughout the years is irreplaceable.
Thanx dj

Kevin Magula
Higher Flyers Pole Vault Club
Kmagula@higherflyers.org
http://www.higherflyers.org

[dj]

hey kevin

thanks

but kudo's goes to you... your girls are kicking boody..

dj

[dj]

Good afternoon

I have been receiving e-mail about the ‚“MID‚ and feel its usage and importance can best be worked out through in these pages..

Clarification:---

I. the ‚“MID‚ isn‚„t necessarily a middle step‚¦.it is a ‚“coaches check mark‚ 6 steps from the plant/take-off.

If X is your left, 6 steps from the take-off you will count‚¦

Start--------------------------------- X---R---1----R---2---R---TO-------box
L-------------------------------------MID------1L-------2L-------3L-------box


II. If you are vaulting on a stiff, non bending pole the resultant grip (grip on a pole before it bends to after it bends), ‚¦still is proportional to the force needed to get that grip to vertical which is proportional to the ‚“MID‚ step need to generate that force‚¦ so the data is relative to the triangle: pole--vaulters body‚€distance from takeoff to the back of the box/pole tip--‚¦.. with one part mathematically proportionate to the other‚¦ grip = force = ‚“MID‚ or ‚“MID‚ = force = grip‚¦ needed to get that grip to vertical. all the chart is trying to tell you is the are proportional. based on data collection since 1971 and the math and physics evolved in the generation of speed.

Let me say this.. In my career I have continued to see many of our top .. very top vaulters, men and women, have a ‚“MID‚ ‚“Coaches Mark‚ to far out, screw up the run, screw up the plant and jump way below their potential.

We have had vaulters dye because they stretched, took off under and low.. got yanked off the ground and thrown to the ground head first. Get your heads out of you‚„re a$$e$ coaches and vaulters and fix the damn run‚¦

Ie: this past year I saw a top American jumper hit a foot ‚“out‚ from what ‚“I‚ felt was the proper 6 step mid‚¦ then hit right on a 4 step ‚“MID‚ but was ‚“wrong‚ speed and posture wise, and couldn‚„t jump.. of course coach and athlete thought the run was ok.. that the athlete had just ‚“failed‚ to complete the vault out of choice‚¦

4 steps is too close...the posture is already ‚“wrong‚ by then.. agapit and pitrov will tell you 6 is too close that it all starts at the first step‚¦ I agree but I want a reasonable ‚“coaches check‚ to help us be more consistent on the run and plant.

How do we create ‚“crazy‚ vaulters?? As coaches we fail to tell the athlete the real reason they fail!! We tell them something they didn‚„t ‚“feel‚ then they get confused, blame themselves and get emotionally unstable..

That vaulter thought the run was ‚“ON‚ therefore he/she was ‚“crazy‚, stupid for not completing the vault‚¦..BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Deep breath‚¦‚¦‚¦.the only thing stopping Lawrence Johnson from jumping a world record has been his run.. his run has created many of his injury issues.. and has given many vaulters and spectators ‚“heart stopping‚ moments.. like flying over the heads of the officials at Hayward field.

I don‚„t want this to be a ‚“pick on Lawrence‚.. session.. I don‚„t really know Lawrence, but have the greatest respect for his achievements, his determination, what he has added to pole vaulting and I‚„m told he is a pretty awesome human being and person‚¦ but I have studied and feel I know his vault‚¦.. but without Lawrence even knowing it I have tried to help him with his run, pole carry and pole plant since 1994!! That fall I did a session at UT and Lawrence chose not to attend‚¦. b continue throughout Lawrence‚„s‚„ career to try to correct his run and pole carry/ plant the way Tim has worked on his.. in Atlanta in ‚„96 Lawrence hit a 58‚„ ‚“MID‚‚¦ STRECHED and took off a foot under.. his advisor/coach (not B ) told him to move back a foot. It made him stretch more and lose speed, take off under, Lawrence has the biggest ‚“BA//s in the world.. he will turn up and sky.. he knows how to pole vault‚¦. Mike Tully knew how to pole vault.. all I did was try and get him to the takeoff with force and ‚“attitude‚ the rest was up to him.. when Lawrence joined HIS john smith told me (john had worked with mike and I on his run in 1983) that he was going to help Lawrence correct his running form. His concern was ‚“how did the pole carry effect the running technique‚ john and I stood on the rail at mt. sac and went through the ‚“balance‚ of the pole carry involved so the legs could go through the proper cycle to create speed‚¦ I heard later Lawrence only did a few or 1 session.

Ladies and gentlemen having a correct run is a ‚“no brain'er‚ remember, I was a long jumper.. 25‚„ doesn‚„t count if you are a foot behind the board.. it‚„s 24‚„‚¦ I jumped 26‚„2‚ with a ‚½ inch foul.. didn‚„t count.. I jumped 24‚„10‚ from 1‚„ behind the board in 1969, indoors in Kansas City.. I still won‚¦ but it went into the record books as 23‚„10‚ not 24‚„10‚ .. look it up.. NAIA Indoor Championships 1969. dj first.. a lack of steps in the vault is much more dangerious in the vault... i have argued that point many times with officals and track and field big wigs.. for 30 plus years....

In my life time I would like to see vault coaches and athletes get the run correct‚¦ I‚„ve only been working on it for 30 years!!!!!!!!!!!!

Those that refuse or can‚„t correct their run should think of another profession.. vaulting is to frustrating and dangerous to continue with something that can be fixed!!!!!!!!!!!

is that straight up enough to piss some people off and get the first problem in vaulting fixed????????????!!!!!!!!


Now to the e-mail‚¦‚¦‚¦‚¦‚¦

Q.

Mr. Johnston - How does pole length and pole weight figure into your 6 stride pattern predictor. My vaulter has a 6 stride pattern of 44'. He holds a 15' 160 at 14'6". His best vault is 13'6". He is a HS freshman, 6'3" tall and runs 100m in 11.8, 6' Hj and 19' LJ. It appears he should be holding lower. Holding lower will stiffen the pole. How does this factor in??

Is the goal to vault higher than your hand hold, before moving to the next pole???? I have heard coaches say a vaulter should go 1 foot above his hand hold, before moving to the next pole. Comment???

Joe Horn Benjamin Logan HS, Bellefontaine, Ogio

A;

i don't use this in my coaching...

that is an excellent jump for a 9th grader, earl bell'ish... and your guy has some pretty awesome physical stats...

it's interesting that you‚„re mid/ 44' and bar height match.. but grip does not...

are you measuring from left to left? if he is a right hander,,,

start------------------mid-----------------TO -----box
--L----------------------L--R--L--R--L--R--L-------box

i'm surprised he has enough force to get the pole to vertical with that grip and mid...that grip is correct for a 15'6" vault.

but if he has very little pole speed he will have a difficult time "swinging" his body above his grip....

but to really see, if and where, changes should be made i would need to see a jump...

my first though would be his "MID" should be out so he has more speed on the run to match the grip... but you don't want him to stretch...

my next thought is you need to lower the grip and put the standards at 32/80 with the mid the same... so there would be a faster swing... creating more height above the grip...

pole weight and length is not a factor in the chart... the vaulter should have enough pole speed to keep the standards at 24" +

dj

q.

Mr. Johnston - Last night Gray made 13'8" still holding a 15' 160 at 14'6". His 15 175 that arrived Monday was run over by a forklift, and I couldn't accept it. I believe as you suggest we have to work on technique of getting off the pole at the top (hips above hands, rotate around the pole and fly away).. Also I don't think we really "swing" as recommended. (we will work on standard adjustment, lower grip and greater height above the hold) His standards are at 20 and most vault coaches I know recommend as you suggest 24-26. D-IIII state champ here in Ohio last year has standards at 27-30. and is working on 15'6" now (Shane Schockey-Bluffton-Ohio High School)

By having his "Mid out" do you mean 45' or 46'??? and the 44' Mid appears to be the last 6 strides before the L plant. I was counting the 44' in r-l-r-l-r-l (last l=plant step)?

Will check again at practice tonight. Thank you for your comments. We also have a sophomore vaulter that cleared 13'6 last night for the first time. He is 6'2" 190. He was on a 14' 185. His new 15 190 was also crushed by the forklift in Monday's delivery!! Thanks again for your very helpful comments Best regards, Joe Horn

A..

hello

from the way you counted the 44' mark...(maybe 5 steps) it sounds like his real 6 stride mark, left to left, is more like 50/51... which would be a little "out" for that hand grip which may be causing him to stretch and lose speed‚¦ affecting his pole speed and a proper takeoff..

but sounds like you are getting some good stuff done... keep it going and keep us informed...

dj

Q.

Dave,

I was reading your article on www.advantageathletics.com about the 6 stride
mark for approach runs. Does it matter what approach length a vaulter has
in terms of lefts? For instance, I have my beginner vaulters using an
approach run of 5 lefts. That corresponds to 9 or 10 total steps. Is
using the "6 stride mark" to far down the runway for an approach that
short?

I coach pole vault at -------- High School, Vermont

Thanks.


Chris

A.

good morning

the "MID" is 3 lefts, 6 steps from the takeoff........that still gives you 2 lefts to the "MID" ..

ST---R----L----R----X---R---L---R---L---R---L------------box

---------------------MID------------------------TO----------box

most beginners i work with use 5 lefts in our first session and will use that until they begin to get the "Run - Plant -Swing" (with emphasis on the plant...) usually a couple of weeks in the beginning of the season...

the "MID" is based on the amount of speed a vaulter can functional use down the runway... that speed, or force, should relate to hand grip.. normally the longer the run the more speed and higher grip.. which means the "MID" should be farther out if the run technique is correct.

The ‚“MID‚ or ‚“COACHES CHECK MARK‚ is an indication of potential force based on the distance the ‚“MID‚ is from the take-off and relates that to the hand grip that can be moved to vertical with that force.

keep in touch

dj

[C-townvault]

hmm... A 15' 190? could be a good pole to add to my progression. Wonder when they get it in if they would share it with me if i make it back to state. Shane is a great technician, but his best is 14'6" currently. I would get that 15' mark before 15'6", Shane . Bellefontaine has always seemed to have good vaulters. Benjamin Logan sounds familiar. How did you get such big and talented athletes? Sounds like St. Henry now.

[dj]

I'm an old vaulter that jumped 16'2 in the early 80's. I coach vaulting now and my daughter is vaulting for me. I do agree with your 6 stride mark, but I need to clarify 6 stride or 6 steps. We count lefts (our take off foot). My daughter is a freshman with really good speed. We have spent most of this year developing her run. Now I'm running into a problem with her approaching the box so fast that she is having a hard time in the transitional phase to vertical. On her two step plant her progression is as follows. 1. She begins with a rolling start before she hits her starting mark with her left foot. 2. After hitting her start we count 4 lefts. 3. On the fifth left we begin our two step plant. 4. She begins lifting her back hand as her left foot hits the ground. The one stride distance from that left to her right is (6'6). 5. She begins pressing the plant from ear level to maximum level as her right foot strikes the ground trying to time her take-off foot hitting the ground as her planting height is at its max. The one step distance from that (right foot) to her take-off left is (4'9).

* She is holding at 10'10
* Before she begins the 2 step plant her strides are 11'2 (left to left).
* If you can suggest anything please help.

coach g

coach g,

If I am doing this correctly she has a 7 left (14step/stride) run after a rolling start? Correct?

Does that give her a total run of 70/80 feet or more?

Also if I do the math her strides/steps are 5‚„7‚ each? If so, that would put her ‚“MID‚/ Coaches Mark at about 44‚„. Additionally, if my math is correct, her run either gives her the ‚“force‚ to grip 13‚„2‚ and jump 13‚„6‚or she is stretching really badly and cannot get the correct plant technique.

This happens many times with decathletes who potentially have a 19‚„ run but only have a 10‚„ plant = equaling a 14-6 vault.

Without seeing a jump, run included, I would suggest trying this:

Put a marker/shoe at 3 lefts from the plant/takeoff, of 36‚„.

St-(rolling)----------x---R---L---R---L---R---L----------box
-----------------------36‚„-----------------------to---------box

(I don‚„t advocate a rolling start because of control and consistency and I would suggest 5 lefts.. 2 to the ‚“MID‚ and 3 more to the takeoff.)

With a ‚“rolling‚ start hit this mark with the takeoff foot (left?)and run in and plant/swing, from this run with a 10-4/10-6 grip. Try this to see if she can start to improve the run/plant technique and rhythm, then you can begin to move the run back proportionately with the correct technique... always avoid REACHING AND STRETCHING ON THE RUN..

keep in touch

dj

[Bubba PV]

I think as elementary as your clarifications /explanations are, they need to be made that clearly. I've used your chart for 15 years now and you're still teaching me things I don't know. THANKS!!! Bubba

[ryansanta]

Let's say I am gripping 14'7 and succesfully achieving the mid mark of 49' like your chart states. What if I am going faster from that mid mark than the chart shows due to a tailwind or such, yet I'm still hitting that mid mark every time. Today I was running the last 6 steps in 1.39sec and my step was about 3 inches in. Would it be better to move up a grip height or just move back my step and keep the grip the same (while having a slightly out mid mark)? Without a wind aided run I am able to hit that mid mark and take off step consistantly.

[dj]

hey ryan

i think under the condition you decribed it is time to move the step back and the grip up.. tail winds normally give you more speed, which should translate into slightly longer strides (without stretching) which = more force...

why do we like to jump with a tail wind??? higher grips.. bigger poles.. why? more "horse power" down the runway..

make sense??

note::::: but i will caution on moving the step out.. always error on a "close step" and having to get the feet down rather thasn on an "out' step that makes you "stretch'

dj

[dj]

Some more dialog from coach g.

Q.
Dave

Let me start off by saying, "I can't believe that you emailed me back".
You taking the time to answer my questions reiterates my point to my
pole vaulters that vaulters are in a class of their own.

The reason I had her take a rolling start is so that she would be more
consistent on her very first step from her mark. The rolling start is
basically three walking steps. I can change this if it's
counter-productive. Her basic run without the rolling start is:

---------x---R---L---R---L---R---L---R---L---R---L---R---L--------box
Start---x------------------------MED----------------------TO-------box
--------x--------------------------x-----------------------Plant
-------61'4----------------------32'8------------------------0-------box
------------------------------------x--------------------------x-7'8"-box
---------------------------------(40'4")------------------------------box

I just remember that I measure her run from the take off foot. This
helps me translate the run to s slide box, or if she is moving up or
down the pole. I need to go back out and measure her take foot from the
box, or I could just use Pythagoras theory. My math is so bad she would
probably end up breaking her ankle on the box after I did the math.

I will try what you suggested but I think that I'm pretty close to what
your suggesting. coach g.

A.

hey

sounds like you have it pretty good... the "rolling" start maybe, shouldn't be changed at this time.. and you may not need the shorter run i suggested but should try it to help with rhythm ..

----just check the "MID" 6 steps out (3 lefts)
-----------------------X-------------------------x-----------box
x----R----L----R---<L>--R---L---R---L---R---L-----------box
----------------------mid-----------------------TO----------box

and see how it matches up with the chart.. and let me know

thanks

dj

Hi Dave

Yesterday using her mid of 38' (from the box) 3 lefts out from
planting, she began to transition into the plant. I decided to look
into my old notes and found "wall plants" . We began practice with
these drills and from two steps away attacking. What I had been seeing
on the runway, I began seeing during this drill. After 30 minutes of
this drill we went back to jump with her new poles and I cannot believe
how much better her transition was. It's so funny how we take small
things for granted.
Are you coaching now? Where are you from? Did you Pole Vault?

Thank you for your kindness and patients. I hope some day we get a
chance to meet. As soon as I can I will send you a clip of my daughter.
Keep in touch.

Coach g

A.

I reconstructed the run from the data you gave me above.. if you add a 7‚„8‚ takeoff distance to what you gave me .. that would have been a 40‚„4‚ ‚“MID‚ which is very good.. you said you used 38 yesterday.. that is very good.. and may mean she can start to move her grip you‚¦

Keep up the good work

dj


ps.. very, very awesome...

keep in touch..

i'm in crystal river florida... coaching a little

trying to fish a lot..

keep in touch

dj

i think you are in washington state?

[agapit]

the charts are one and the same... the newest one, this one, has updated metric mps auto times as found by perter mcginnis' high speed vid

dj

I think the chart is a very good guideline. The chart describes the norm and it is based on a very reliable method (numerous observations). Like any chart it would have deviations from the norm. Different athletes would have different step frequency (Hz). Shorter athletes tend to have a higher frequency than taller athletes, so obviously at the same speeds shorter athletes would have a shorter mid-mark.

However, frequency to my knowledge is an inborn ability and cannot be significantly altered through training, so the chart would be a good reference for an athlete through the years with a correction accounting for the individual frequency difference from the norm.

There are simple methods of measuring a relative individual frequency. One of the methods is to put dots on the paper in the given time (say 6-10 sec) and than count them. A person with the higher frequency would be expected to have a closer mid-mark with the same speed.

The method above would not predict the exact difference just the fact that there expected to be a difference in a certain direction.

[ladyvolspvcoach]

Agapit's back!! Remember the marks I had on the track in Stokley last Feb? I had Lee and Devon running them. You decided to run them and found them to be pretty effective. Those marks were the 14' stride length marks on the Chart!!!