Russian Style Pole Vaulting..

[altius]

Great response Mikepv1! You are obviously thinking about key issues, if I had known as much about the vault when i was twenty one as you do now i would have been famous. I hope a few more folk chip in with their opinions because it will be interesting to see where everyone is coming from.

[altius]

To Vtechvaulter. Someone a lot wiser than me said "The devil is always in the detail', Just to take one little detail. How easy is it to hit a precise take off spot for a dynamic take off and with the pole completely under control, gripping at 17' and running at 9.8m/sec speed??

[altius]

Vtechvaulter. For the benefit of a pv nerd - oops - forgot i was promoted - well for the benefit of a non American speaker can you explain the difference between a tap swing and a straight leg swing - and why you think it makes no difference please which you use?

[swtvault]

Vtechvaulter. For the benefit of a pv nerd - oops - forgot i was promoted - well for the benefit of a non American speaker can you explain the difference between a tap swing and a straight leg swing - and why you think it makes no difference please which you use?

The man was making a generalization. But to me, a tap swing is the way to go. That way you are actually whipping and swinging. When you swing with a locked trail leg you are losing out on alot of swing energy (GUILTY.)
Your swing is invariably slower because you have lessened the stretch reflexes of your joints to a great extent, and lost alot of power in the process. I never totally figured it out pole vaulting, but on a high bar I could swing like lighting because I utilized the stretch reflexes and whipping action of the trail leg. If you watch carefully, alot of the greats will lift their trail foot (causing their trail leg to be cocked) and drive it down to initiate the swing. Tully was the King of the Swing, Stevenson is really good at it, Bubka did it, and it looks like Mack is doing it now too!

[altius]

I am just trying to work out what the term 'Tap swing' really means. i think i know what is crucial in this phase of the vault - Page 152 of BTB clearly outlines my concept of the 'swing' - although as i indicate there i believe it should be thought of as a whipping rather than a swinging action.

However why use the term "TAP swing" ? Everyone knows that if you swing a long straight leg it will be too slow - but why use the term TAP swing - I still do not know what it specifically means.

[master]

However why use the term "TAP swing" ?

Could that be a term used in gymnastics? That's what it seems to be according to this web page. http://www.gymnasticsrevolution.com/GymInteractive-Bars-TapSwing.htm The terms 'hollow' and 'arch' used in the definition are links that further define them as used in gymnastics. I don't understand how that motion relates to the swing in the vault.

Here is another site that gives a narrative, and has a link that shows a small animation of the move. http://www.drillsandskills.com/skills/hbar/Z#hbz001 In this animation, it looks more like the vault swing. Also, the narrative talks about the tap happening after the gymnast passes the point of feet being straight down. I'm still not sure what the "tap" is.

The first gymnastics website has something I think would be very good for the pole vault world to have, and that is a glossary of terms with pictures and good written definitions. It would help us all to speak a similar language.

- master

[altius]

Exactly Master! That many of us speak versions of English should be a huge advantage in communication but if we dont understand the words people are using it is of little value. In this case i accept that my ignorance is the problem but if you scout this forum you will find many terms which are clearly not understood by readers, while others have vague meanings.

Thanks for the heads up on the gymnastic sites.

[KirkB]

Vtechvaulter. For the benefit of a pv nerd - oops - forgot i was promoted - well for the benefit of a non American speaker can you explain the difference between a tap swing and a straight leg swing - and why you think it makes no difference please which you use?

The man was making a generalization. But to me, a tap swing is the way to go. That way you are actually whipping and swinging. When you swing with a locked trail leg you are losing out on alot of swing energy (GUILTY.)
Your swing is invariably slower because you have lessened the stretch reflexes of your joints to a great extent, and lost alot of power in the process. I never totally figured it out pole vaulting, but on a high bar I could swing like lighting because I utilized the stretch reflexes and whipping action of the trail leg. If you watch carefully, alot of the greats will lift their trail foot (causing their trail leg to be cocked) and drive it down to initiate the swing. Tully was the King of the Swing, Stevenson is really good at it, Bubka did it, and it looks like Mack is doing it now too!

Hmm ... so you guys were talking about "LIFTING THEIR TRAIL LEG" and "SWING LIKE LIGHTENING" on this forum 3 years ago, eh? Sorry, just browsing thru this old posts now. Very interesting.

One clarification though. There's a BIG difference between lifting the trail FOOT and lifting the trail LEG. The way I did it (see: Bryde Bend thread) was to lift the entire leg, WITHOUT BENDING MY KNEE. This is quite different, because it gives you much more of a stretch - all the way thru your body. If you just lift the trail FOOT, then you only whip the LEG - not the whole body.

You may notice my other post from tonight (in the Historical forum) about Dave Roberts. If you look at Roberts' video, I think that's what swtvault is describing here.

It's interesting for me to hear that the trail leg lift/whip/swing is well-known - albeit with a bent knee. I probably didn't differentitate that very important aspect of my technique very well in my Bryde Bend thread. I'll have to do that.

Kirk

[H.I.S.]

I have been trying to work with a free take off, it is very difficult to nail consistently, but when it is performer one can easily feel the difference. It is by far a much better style of jumping, the only problem as stated by a couple of others, you have to make adjustments in your vault and it takes time and patience and a keen sense of being able to adapt to the vault because if you can achieve a free take off, the odds are you will not do it every jump. Bubka stated that it was something he had only accomplished sometimes, but it should be the goal of every vaulter.

[OUvaulterUSAF]

First, I didn't read the entire thread, probably won't.

My opinion about the prejump and freetake off after chasing that 'white wale' for 2 1/2 years...

Out of the tens of thousands of vaulters raise your hand if you can do an effective prejump and free take off? I get about 1 maybe 2 out of every 10 jumps. Otherwise, it's just jumping outside and the pole sinks and my vault sucks. I went back to jumping where my foot is always on and then focus on swinging my trail leg long and moving my arms to my midsection/groin at the right moment, then stay in tight off the end.

My point is only a small percentage can do the prejump/freetakeoff effectively. If you are a little under or on you can still jump high. I will say jumping under is universally poor form. But how much of a difference in height is there between jumping on and doing the prejump/freetakeoff?

[powerplant42]

How much height would be enough to raise your PR?...

The pre-jump is an element born out of the more basic and simpler concept of a free take-off. It is obviously much easier to do, since thousands of vaulters have a free take-off, but no pre-jump. OUvaulterUSAF, maybe you are trying to take have too much of a pre-jump and not enough free take-off? There should not be much distance from your take-off point and on... I'll do the math on this point someday, but for now, I'll just guesstimate that 10mps at take-off calls for around 6 inches out, 9mps around 5.5, 8 around 4.75... Just be sure that you're not focussing too much on getting the pre-jump by pushing your take-off way back. (And I think that 10-20% is excellent, since Bubka only hit a couple of real pre-jumps in his career...)

[OUvaulterUSAF]

My plant take-off is fine now. I'm right around the take off to hand grip ratio on DJ's mid mark chart. I'm sometimes 4 - 6 inches outside which is fine. There was an entire year where my vaults holding 15' and take off was 14', it was very ineffective jumping.