Mid Mark Chart

[agapit]

Agapit's back!! Remember the marks I had on the track in Stokley last Feb? I had Lee and Devon running them. You decided to run them and found them to be pretty effective. Those marks were the 14' stride length marks on the Chart!!!

Well the effectiveness of any exercise depends on the objective for which it is being used.

[altius]

Agapit - I found your comment about 'cadence' being essentially inbuilt, strange if not outright weird. Are you saying that Bubka, Markov and even Galfione were born with the ability to increase cadence in the latter stages of their run and expecially to speed up the last three steps? The whole concept of coaching is that you CAN change movement patterns -within the constraints of 'what is technically desirable must be physical possible" of course. if that is not true why bother to coach anyone.

Two points. All of the above discussion about mids seems to ignore the fact that it is possible to change the structure and running pattern of an athlete. That is often far more important than trying to help an athlete hit a specific mid. The mid should only be established -as a coaching cue -after the athlete is running properly - and then be continually modified as they improve their run up.

Secondly take a look at the run up of any top class high jumper and you will see a very specific run up structure of three distinct elements -each with a specific rational. Good triple jumpers also have a distinctive pattern which help them achieve their objective which is to accelerate through the board.

So while i have no problem with mid charts which many folk clearly use with great satisfaction I would simply say that this emphasis is the wrong way round. Get the athlete running properly and preparing for an effective take off and THEN check to see where they are hitting six steps out -that becomes a check mark for the coach - not the athlete. Because although they may sight it several steps back and make some minor adjustments because of what they pick up - athletes should not be distracted by looking for a check mark as they move on to it. it is for the coach only.

In part my attitudte to this issue was driven by what i saw at a clinic i assisted at in the US last year. Every athlete knew their mid - but not one of the 26 campers knew HOW TO RUN either too it, or beyond it.

All of that said, I have enjoyed the obvious professionalism demonstrated by those who have posted on this topic.

I still luv you agapit! What happened to Stalin's car - the one you stole form Russian and sold in the US?

[rainbowgirl28]

So while i have no problem with mid charts which many folk clearly use with great satisfaction I would simply say that this emphasis is the wrong way round. Get the athlete running properly and preparing for an effective take off and THEN check to see where they are hitting six steps out -that becomes a check mark for the coach - not the athlete. Because although they may sight it several steps back and make some minor adjustments because of what they pick up - athletes should not be distracted by looking for a check mark as they move on to it. it is for the coach only.

My coach would kill me if I ever tried to look at my MID mark.

I have a SPEED mark, 4 steps (2 lefts) from the beginning of my run that I look at. My coach looks at my MID mark.

[Bubba PV]

I too believe and depend 100% in DJ's chart and have removed any interpretive comments from the chart on my website. Nobody explains it better than he so I provided his email contact as well. Bubba
http://www.bubbapv.com/Pages/dj.htm

[JMP8928]

DJ great stuff. i gave a copy to my coach. he's all about new stuff, so hopefully he'll take a good look at it

justin

[lonestar]

I was first introduced to "The List" (as Bubba Sparks and I call it) or DJ's chart about 4 years ago, and have used it with great success in coaching my club. As DJ pointed out earlier, the grip is proportional to the force needed to move that grip to vertical, which is proportional to the mid and stride length. While it is a guideline, if you match the mids/stride lengths to the grips and work out the technical inefficiencies which would prevent at least matching the height on the chart for that grip, you will become a much more efficient vaulter, be able to grip higher, use bigger poles, and have a better pushoff in the long-run. We begin at very low heights on the list with an emphasis on precise penultimate and takeoff steps, complete extension of the body from top hand to toe, and moving a non-bending pole to vertical with a fast, powerful swing. Once we max-out our grip on a non-bending pole, we move to a stiff pole that will flex just enough to penetrate enough to make the height. As the grips move up and mids move out, the pole speed and landing area dictate the pole stiffness and length of run. We start from 4 steps/2 lefts, and work progressively back 1 left at a time to our long run. I know DJ doesn't agree with short run work, but we have found it to be very effective using his chart.

[Barto]

We start from 4 steps/2 lefts, and work progressively back 1 left at a time to our long run. I know DJ doesn't agree with short run work, but we have found it to be very effective using his chart.

We have used a very similar system with outstanding results for 15+ years. My only reservation with recommending this system is that most coaches I have observed misapply the chart. They try to force a mid/grip combination that the athlete is not ready for. You have to let the athlete's limitations dictate where you begin on the chart.This can be a very frustrating reality for coaches and athletes. The great coaches are the ones who have the will to do things correctly - even in the face of conflict and unpopularity with their athletes/athletes' parents/head coaches/athletic directors/USATF Development Chairmen/agents/meet promotors/Gill/UCS/or the apostle Paul!

Barto

[Bubba PV]

For us all kids start at 7' - 8' each year whether you're a 14' girl or 18' guy. At some point you tend to lose efficiency and all technical changes seem drastic. At this level you can make fundamental changes without expending a lot of energy, leaving you tons of jumps to try things. Since you have to make each height before you move to the next, you must "Face Your Demons". I had a guy go from 16 to 17' 8" that got stuck on 10' 6" for two weeks because that's the height his flaws began to show. Another guy took 32 attempts to make 8' 6" and then made everything on the first jump through 15' 6". He jumped 17' 7" that year. It's a real fun time of the year to do this. Have fun! Bubba

PS - http://www.bubbapv.com/Pages/dj.htm now has a direct link to a Word file made by DJ.

[dj]

guys

the chart is still here..

this answers the ...grip to height formula

dj

[lonestar]

This chart is ingenious. The key is using it correctly! Only took me 4 years to figure it out!

DJ is the man!

[dj]

Changes in the step width, step length and step frequency of the
World's top sprinters during the 100 meters
by Akira Ito

excerpts from the paper‚..


The stride patterns of 18 male sprinters taking part in the first round heats of the 100m at the 2005 IAAF World Championships in Athletics were analyzed. It was found that the main difference between sprinters at the 10.12 - 10.32 level and sprinters at the 10.40 - 10.90 level was in the step length. It was also found that both groups decreased their step width from 0.39 +/- 0.07m in the first step after the start to 0.17 +/- 0.04m in full stride running. The authors suggested that a wide step width (increasing step width) may be best suited for developing driving force during the long foot contacts in the acceleration phase while a narrow step width may be best for the short foot contacts of full stride sprinting.

To me this speaks very clearly to the Approach Run set-up, in that the vaulter "drives" from the first step and continues to accelerate into "full stride sprinting" to a "MID" that is 6 steps from the takeoff. From the "MID" the vaulter, like the sprinter at full stride sprinting, will try to "get the feet down" and achieve the "narrow step width which may be best for the short foot contacts of full stride sprinting and I may add‚. a functional left-right-left "impulse" at takeoff.

I have studied step lengths in vaulters, long jumpers and triple jumpers for 40 years now. The last 2/3 steps just before the "MID" are always longer (if the jumpers approach run is correct and dynamic) than the average steps from the "MID" to the takeoff. I don't have a percentage yet but could collect that if the vaulters on PVP wanted to give me the distance from the start of their approach to a 6 step "MID".

For example my full 6 left/12 step approach is 63 feet, my "MID" is 38. I cover 25 feet from the start to the "MID". I know that my last step before the "MID" is 5'1". My steps from the "MID" to takeoff are 4'11" each‚ except the penultimate of course. If someone wants to do the math % of decrease from 5'1 to 4'11 we might come up with a formula that would fit everyone including world class

Paper Results and Discussion

As expected, the step length increased gradually during the early part of the acceleration phase. The patterns of increase were similar in both groups. However, the better group had a longer step length during this acceleration phase. The same was true for full stride length, which was, on the average, 0.12 +/- 0.03m, longer in the fastest group.

The step frequency was maintained at almost the same level (4.56 +/- 0.16 steps/s: in the acceleration and full stride phases and no difference was observed between the groups.

So what have we just been told?

First faster sprinters/jumpers will have longer step lengths.. Number two, faster vaulters can hold higher.

Revisit my chart.. It is proportional...

A third, and a very important, point that needs to be made and is where this post is headed. Is this..

The first part of the approach is just as important as any part of the vault. That/this is why the way you "toe" the mark, hold the pole and "come out of the back" has to be performed in a very balanced, natural and mechanically sound way.. Skips, pumps, gallops, etc are not correct.. the way petrov describes the start is the way to do it..

And my most important point for today‚‚..the beginning steps have to be "natural" not "over controlled" in an effort to save something for the end...... but accelerated and progressive.

In the heat of battle the athlete will go to a "natural" feel‚so train and practice natural acceleration. My chart gives you the correct step patterns for the grips and heights ‚ is there a +/- ? yes but it is minimal.

Start you're Approach with the takeoff foot toeing your "mark"‚ the other foot is a couple of feet behind the front foot.. just like a standing sprint start.

Hold the pole (right handed vaulter) right hand at the waist, left wrist high and straight out from the sternum‚ 8 to 10 inches.. hold the pole in the "forks" of the hand‚ left elbow down and below the left wrist. Push out/start like a standing sprint but maybe at 85/95%. "sprint to the "MID".. then think "turnover"‚. getting your feet down into what i call a "piston" action into the left-right-left plant rhythm.

Finally use my chart to setup and practice your run on the track.. coach job/ladyvolspvcoach has setup a routine from my chart that works.. ask him to share it..

Later.. have a great preseason.. now is the time to fix your run‚

dj

PS.. I would love to go to San Diego with all the vaulters there and present my thoughts and info on the approach run.. I think and I'm sure there would be something, over a 2/3 day time period, that each vaulter could get a positive result from..

If anyone close to the vaulters or USATF wants to put "a word out" to help me get that arranged I would be grateful.. sorry to "self promote" but that seems to be the only way to get heard. I'm available anytime they want to do a session.. this fall during the "off" season would be best‚.. Mike Tully and I started revamping his run 18 months prior to the 84' games.. it worked..

[sooch90]

I have just a small question.

I was practicing some poll runs using a 12'7" pole, but the chart says the take of should be a 9'8"? For some reason, when I place my foot on this mark, and place the pole in the box, I seem to be very under? I don't know if maybe I just measured it incorrectly or something (my friend and I double checked it), but I was definitely under. Any thoughts?

thanks!