Run Discussion

[dtrack28]

My bench max is 270, my weight is 160

Every core lift (squats-505, clean-175 ,deadlift-don't do) is essential to becoming stronger and faster.

This couldn't be more wrong (ok, I lied it could be more wrong). The one lift that gets the muscles used in a sprint to "fire" the most is the deadlift. When you sprint you are pushing up off of the ground with your legs in order to accelerate forward and upward against the force of gravity. Studies have shown that the force applied by a sprinter horizontally is one tenth that of the force applied vertically. While squats are nice and do help you to increase the force you can apply to the ground, you never actually lower your hips to that position while sprinting in order to push upward off the ground. While a proper deadlift starts in this squat position the only motion you are focusing on is the upward push off of the ground (not the lowering of your body with a ton of weight on it like in the squat). The only reason any of your coaches have told you (or the only reason they should have told you) not to do deadlifts is because most high school and many college athletes do them incorrectly leading to injury. So if you can learn how to deadlift properly DO deadlifts.

[PaulVaulter]

Studies have shown that the force applied by a sprinter horizontally is one tenth that of the force applied vertically.

Good point dtrack, but these values tend to be taken from when a sprinter is at top speed, i.e. after the start, drive phase and transition, and so the sprinter is just maintaining their speed and slowing as little as possible, for top sprinters this will be after about 60-70m. My point is that I don't think a vaulter could, or should ever get into this situation.

As I see it a vaulters run-up is very different from sprinting in that acceleration comes from clawing the ground in a tall position, and not so much pushing out the back. And even top speed mechanics can be changed due to an altered C.G. from the pole.

Good information but I don't think it can be directly related to pole vault.

[dtrack28]

i.e. after the start, drive phase and transition, and so the sprinter is just maintaining their speed and slowing as little as possible, for top sprinters this will be after about 60-70m. My point is that I don't think a vaulter could, or should ever get into this situation.

The only way sprinter can maintain their speed and not slow down is to continue to apply the same amount of force to the ground as possible. Meaning that the only thing that is really changing in their sprint mechanics is their body position. The position that a sprinter gets into around 40m (very upright, focusing on bring the knees up and the feet through as fast as possible), is the same as a pole vaulter would be in, about 2-3 lefts or rights before the plant. The only difference would be the actual speed (m/s).

As I see it a vaulters run-up is very different from sprinting in that acceleration comes from clawing the ground in a tall position, and not so much pushing out the back. And even top speed mechanics can be changed due to an altered C.G. from the pole.

Sprint mechanics are a very important part of pole vaulting, at least from the waste down. In order to maximize speed you want your legs to move as efficiently and as powerfully as possible. Why would a pole vaulter want to do something that would hinder this? and with that question I mean, why would a pole vaulter not want to look like a sprinter (from the waist down again because we can't use our arms) or a long jumper while going down the runway?

Finally, what part of this picture makes you think that this vaulter is clawing at the ground and not pushing off of it. And tell me she isn't in a sprint position. http://www.coolrunning.co.nz/nzpv/train ... ey-run.jpg

[PaulVaulter]

Not that this is really the thread for this but anyway....

Yes Stacey is pushing out the back with that stride, quite blatantly, but that photo is almost definately of one of her first few strides. If it were her last few she would be sacrificing a lot of height at plant with such a low position.

The position that a sprinter gets into around 40m (very upright, focusing on bring the knees up and the feet through as fast as possible), is the same as a pole vaulter would be in

This I can partially agree with, what I was saying before is that a vaulter doesn't get to the same position as a sprinter is in at 60-70m, which is where the information about horizontal and vertical forces applied is usually taken.

If you don't want to hinder the movement of you legs, and want to sprint as efficiently and powerfully as possible then don't carry a pole. Unfortunately this is something that most pole vaulters must do in order to clear a good, if any, height, and so running mechanics are altered.

Yes, both sprinters and long jumpers are fast and do have enviable qualities on the runway, but a sprinter doesn't have to think about accelerating into take-off, and a long jumper doesn't have to think about being as tall as possible as he jumps off.

That being said, i think this is an interesting topic and is far more deserving of a discussion thread than the 5 a day at the moment on how to get inverted.

[altius]

Quote "Finally, what part of this picture makes you think that this vaulter is clawing at the ground and not pushing off of it. And tell me she isn't in a sprint position. http://www.coolrunning.co.nz/nzpv/train ... ey-run.jpg[/quote]

Yes and she is an American vaulter - if you want to run like that even at the start of your run, good luck to you. However check out any of the vaulters using the Petrov/Bubka model and you will see the clawing action Paulvaulter is suggesting is the way vaulters should run in a major part of their approach. Also show us the following frames and let us see how the foot actually makes ground contact!!

The fact is good sprinters have to strike ahead of their centre of mass or they would fall on their nose when moving at top speed. When carrying a pole this situation is exacerbated because the centre of mass of a vaulter/pole system is moved forward by the very fact of carrying the pole -even when using an efficient high carry. hence the need for an exaggerated knee thigh punch and an extended claw action of the striking foot in the first phase of a vaulters run up.

When the pole is lowered, the problem changes and so does the structure and mechanics of the run. Check out Rogowska if you prefer to watch female vaulters -otherwise look at Bubka again with these thoughts in mind.

I appreciate that you can believe what ever you like - and it makes no never mind to me. However this is but one of many aspects of the vault that US vaulters and coaches need to look at more carefully in my view. It is certainly far more important to vaulting than the original topic -which is almost irrelevant to the event - at least once athletes can press around 150% of their body weight. As for the dead lift and its relationship to pole vaulting - well - that is something you do when you have not the slightest idea of how to train for the vault - and please dont start on about the importance of core strength because we would have to be real dummies not to know about that!:D

Perhaps this should be shifted into another thread!!

[dtrack28]

well here's a picture of your beloved Yelena Isinbayeva (I'll find one of bubka later). http://gblx.cache.el-mundo.net/elmundod ... bayeva.jpg
Anyways, she even has a slight forward lean, but the one thing you should notice is that her foot has yet to hit the ground below her, meaning that when it does it will hit almost directly beneath her. This means not nearly as much "clawing" action will take place, rather she will push off of the ground in order to fight against gravity and continue to move forward. This is where the deadlift immediately followed by a set of plyos comes into play. As far as american vaulters being behind when it come to how they think of the vault, this may be true, but if you look at photos of american vaulters they tend to show this "clawing" motion more so than the best woman vaulter in the world. If the clawing motion is more desirable then you're arguing against yourself. I dont know why I even posted this, trying to convince altius of something is like trying to tell a small child that he can't have any cake on his birthday. So really this post is for anyone else who has been following this thread, and may want to learn something...altius already knows it all.

oh and here is the american running like you said the russians do. Go to this website http://www.stabhoch.com/ and click on the "serie" of walkers 570 jump. Look at the second and third frames and see walker doing exactly what altius said we should all be doing (keeping in mind that us americans don't understand the vault).

[rainbowgirl28]

I split this from the bench thread, since this is a great discussion and did not need to be buried in 10 pages of how much can you bench.

[altius]

Two points really - The first is what is your point? Do the better vaulters - US, and others - run in the manner I suggested or not? -- in the early phase of their run -- or - do they run as the photo of Stacey suggested? If that photo represents your vision of an athletes posture for the major part of their run I suggest you reconsider. That photo by the way must have been taken in the first or second strides of her run up - and even then her trunk should have been more upright.

Secondly I suggest that you stop posting individual photos because it is pretty clear that the one of Isinbyeva shows her just as her foot is coming down on her six step mark - at which point a lot of things change as the pole drops and cadence increases. However I will bet you that film of Isinbyeva will confirm the point i am making while film of Bubka will show that even into the last strides of his run he is actively clawing in front of the centre of mass.

But before egos creep into this i am out of here - as I said before everyone is entitled to believe whatever they like. Note that I comment on US vaulters and coaches because the vast majority of visitors to this forum are from those groups. Not much point in analysing French methods on this site is there?

That said i have also made the point previously that there are many fine vault coaches in the US - there just are not enough of them to go round all the athletes who want help. That is why this forum is important - and why the material presented here should be accurate.

[PaulVaulter]

My suggestion dtrack is to try to do a forward leaning acceleration phase with a 5.20m 220lb pole, and then see how quickly you agree with Altius.

Having had the pleasure of holding one of Okkert Britts' old poles, believe me you want that thing as vertical and close to your centre of mass as possible (unless you are a beast like Okkert).

The important thing on big poles is to keep their and your C.G. close together, this then allows you to take the load through your skeletal system and not waste muscular energy high up the runway. As soon as you lean forward, so does the pole, and then you just start working against it.

[dtrack28]

Holding the pole verticle has nothing to do with the position your trunk and legs are in. The picture of dragilla is most likely in her first few steps and as she continues down the runway she will become more upright but she will never rely on clawing the ground. Nobody who runs should. The force you apply horizontaly is one tenth of what is applied vertically. This statement is generally accepted as true as new studies are continuing to come out that agree with it. How does clawing help you to apply verticle force? Your hamstring don't apply verticle force, your quads and gluts do. So why are we so focused on this clawing motion? Maybe american vaulters aren't as good as they could be because they think like you guys do when it comes to sprint mechanics, and claw too much. Or maybe this is why american sprinters are dominating most of the rest of the world because coaches are finally start to switch the focus to the push off the ground rather than the pull. Below I have another question for altius which I can gaurantee he'll have an answer to but I'm curious to see what it is.


If long jumping is such an integral part of pole vaulting (which I agree that it is). Why would we not want to run on the runway like a long jumper? Here are some more pics of kilmartin when he was in high school. first is his long jump...other than his hands, it looks like a great pole vault take off, and the next pic of him on the runway looks like great position for a polevaulter to be in on the runway (again other than the arms and the unrelaxed face).
http://www.dyestat.com/image/1out/gsw/k ... ht270w.jpg
http://www.dyestat.com/image/1out/gsw/k ... proach.jpg

So if we want to be like long jumpers off of the ground, why would we not want to run like them to put ourselves in the position to long jump at the takeoff?

[dtrack28]

For PoleVaulter

what I was saying before is that a vaulter doesn't get to the same position as a sprinter is in at 60-70m, which is where the information about horizontal and vertical forces applied is usually taken

What you wrote is simply not true. The studies have all been taken for constant speed running...this includes sprinting, polevaulting, long jumping, and believe it or not even distance running. This wasn't a study done for sprinters, it was done for any and all runners. Now correct me if I'm wrong but pole vaulting requires running, correct? Now I know we do some things differently because of our sport, but distance runners have completely different form (in order to conserve energy) than a sprinter yet all this stuff applies to them too.

[altius]

I was going to walk away from this because it is clear it has become a matter of ego with some - but as I indicated above this forum is important so what is posted must be accurate. Still you have to stop banging your head against the brick wall sometime -so here goes for the very last time.

I say again, go back to the film -not stills - of Bubka, Markov Isinbyeva, Feofanova and Rogowska to name but a few and really analyse how they run with a pole in their hands. Then come back and tell me you are not seeing what I and others claim is the case.

Re the long jump - pole vaulters run differently because they have a bloody great pole in their hands which moves their centre of mass forward and their running technique must take this into account. As paulvaulter suggests take a 5.20/5.30 or 5.50 pole and see how well you run doing it your way. Of course you can run any way you like with a short light pole and if you are strong enough it will make no - or very little- difference. Note that none of the other RUNNERS you mentioned carry anything in their hands -certainly nothing that can have the torque forces a pole can generate no matter how it is carried.

The reason there is a correlation between the long jump and the vault is simply that both require a fast approach and an upspringing take off -not necessarily because the run up is identical -although of course it will be similar -but with the differences suggested above.

But we will agree to disagree - if you are an athlete i will inerested in following your career and if you are a coach i would be interested in seeing how your athletes progress. Just remember a quote from btb -"A coach has a thousand careers, but an athlete only has one.