Masters vaulters with ARRP cards listen!

[Bruce Caldwell]

You vaulters with ARRP cards listen up!
Ok rules govern a select group that never followed the rules and has ended up with catastrophic accidents in their field.

But it is every pole manufacturer's requirement to select a pole rated at or above your weight.

"I hear it all the time well I cannot bend a pole at my weight"

There is a reason why you should not use a long pole under your weight even if you have less velocity, a short run, or you are old and slow. This pole has a wall thickness to support only that weight and anything more will over stress the pole, which will result in a possible broken pole occurring on subsequent jumps!
If you have gotten older and have to use a softer pole I recommend you move the length down so you fit the pole. Even master vaulters can do better if they look at this aspect.


I know you guys use to hold 15’ but lets be realistic and move to a grip that is safe and will allow you to vault for pete’s sake. This is not pole bending this is Pole Vaulting
(Jumping over your handgrip)

[Decamouse]

Interesting - "This pole has a wall thickness to support only that weight and anything more will over stress the pole" - - are you saying that in a static test a 150 lb pole can only support that weight and anything more will cause overstressing? - I know what the rules say, know what the labels say, know why they say it - real world - would you put a PE license on the line with that statement? Also - "should not use a long pole at or under your weight" - do you really mean "at" your weight - so a 170 is not a 170?

[Bruce Caldwell]

Interesting - "This pole has a wall thickness to support only that weight and anything more will over stress the pole" - - are you saying that in a static test a 150 lb pole can only support that weight and anything more will cause overstressing? - I know what the rules say, know what the labels say, know why they say it - real world - would you put a PE license on the line with that statement? Also - "should not use a long pole at or under your weight" - do you really mean "at" your weight - so a 170 is not a 170?

If you move to a longer pole it should be at your weight or stiffer!
I did mis-state my thoughts it should of said; under your weight, obliviously at your weight is appropriate and I corrected it in the previous posting.
That may be a better way to say it than the way I did originally

"should not use a long pole at or under your weight"

WHAT ENGINEERING NEEDS
I am not saying that a static test will show that a pole will support the weight rating as a static weight, as you know all these weight sizes are established by the manufacturer based on their experience of what their pole is capable of doing and supporting.
This rating may vary from manufactuer to manufactuer based on concept, design, and method of assembly of the end product.
Yes you are correct, from an engineering stand point the number has no supportive value and is only a number placed on the pole to indicate the maximum weight for that design. But exceeding the rating will overstress the pole or mush the pole and is not recommended by the manufacturer and is supported by the NFHS rules.
WHAT VAULTERS NEED
If you have a smooth transition from one length to the next like we do then yes the patterns call for a larger mandrel size when you go to the next length pole.
A larger mandrel same size pole provides more stiffness and less glass. A shorter same size pole is a smaller mandrel and more glass.
Larger mandrel sizes provide from an engineering bases more stiffness and hoop.
We have established this continuity within the system with a consistent wall for each mandrel. This is why the vaulter does not lose their timing on the pole and are able to move from one size pole to another smoothly with in our line.

In an effort to provide this type of pole and for it to work through the whole line, you will have many areas that support this. It is not a fact in all cases, but is the best way to explain to the layman non-engineer why they need to stay on poles that fit them.
If you have a pole that is inconsistent then you will not have these criteria.

The vaulting world needs a pole to move from one size to the next with out the need to re-establish timing. The vaulting season window is so small now days and the vaulter do not have the time to change their timing because a pole manufacturer wishes to demand that the athlete adjust to their poles rather than us making what the industry needs.
Master vaulters and decathletes would jump higher if they followed these requirements.

Thanks for the soapbox to stand on!

[Decamouse]

Great Tap dance - You can use a pole rated at your weight - 170 lb on 170 lb pole - under anybodies rules - In Open, Masters, College it does not specify a weight Rule - common sense needs to prevail - if I pull out my 13'6" 175 and am holding down about a foot - will it work if I am 180 - yes - and it will not over stress the pole - when you factor in that I have lost a full second in my 100m time over the last 15 yrs - I am sure not capable of putting the same/force or energy into the pole - As a coach and athlete for 20 plus years - I understand this - Does that mean I should buy extra poles so I have a 13' 180, or 185 - get real - as a manufacturer it would be great - but a rule like that might also kill the sport - and how do you inforce it - ask the 60yr lady to step on a scale - you can overstress a pole under your weight if you pull down, lever like crazy, throw in being under - my soap box may be overstressed - I am not sure of its rating - just re-read this - I sound a little cranky today - just remember Hill Street Blues - be safe out there

[Bruce Caldwell]

Great Tap dance - You can use a pole rated at your weight - 170 lb on 170 lb pole - under anybodies rules - In Open, Masters, College it does not specify a weight Rule - common sense needs to prevail - if I pull out my 13'6" 175 and am holding down about a foot - will it work if I am 180 - yes - and it will not over stress the pole - when you factor in that I have lost a full second in my 100m time over the last 15 yrs - I am sure not capable of putting the same/force or energy into the pole - As a coach and athlete for 20 plus years - I understand this - Does that mean I should buy extra poles so I have a 13' 180, or 185 - get real - as a manufacturer it would be great - but a rule like that might also kill the sport - and how do you inforce it - ask the 60yr lady to step on a scale - you can overstress a pole under your weight if you pull down, lever like crazy, throw in being under - my soap box may be overstressed - I am not sure of its rating

I disagree!
Whether the rules mandate you use a pole rated at your weight or not, all manufacturers state on all their poles that this is the requirement for safety and proper pole vaulting.

if I pull out my 13'6" 175 and am holding down about a foot - will it work if I am 180 - yes –

NO
Sorry that is incorrect; this is the very thing I have been trying to tell everyone.
If you hold below the grip area to increase the stiffness of the pole you are ruining your timing, you are making it harder to jump as you are now holding down into the sail or the meat of the pole, the pole cannot bend over properly to provide you a return action/angle needed to clear the bar.
OK I will admit you have a stiffer pole if you hold down but you have a 175 test pole that has had it’s lever point shortened. An increase in load stored into a shorter length could result in breakage if the load of the pole is for a lighter load rating.
How can a pole 13’6’ holding 1 foot lower than the ring 12’3â€Â

[Decamouse]

Wow - "Sorry that is incorrect" - Guess what you are saying is alot of what is taught at Engineering schools, mechanics of solids, etc, dont' hold true - elastic buckling theory, so column length does not matter for loads and overstress- darn - learn something new every day - the idea of gripping lower on a pole does not work either - who would have thought! PS: The last meet I say Phil (W55 Record Holder) vault she used a Mystic - or is there some other W55 Record Holder? But then again Phil holds just about all jump and sprint records for her age and all the multi's. And if it is so exact - how can you have a soft-med-hard flex - does that mean you have to be a soft 170 pounds or under to vault on a soft 170? - we all have rules to play by - some are man made - some are not - currently weight ratings is not an exact science -

[Bruce Caldwell]

mechanics of solids, etc, dont' hold true - elastic buckling theory, so column length does not matter for loads and overstress- darn

Vaulting poles are not solids they are hollow and are not columns.
Disclaimer
In the interest to not mention our brand name in the above reply to the Board, I must state as a Disclaimer that the above statement only applies to ESSX Vaulting poles and I am not an expert for the other brands.
If the other manufacturers wish to state in a public arena that their pole rated 175 is ok at a 180 lbs rate they do so on their own accord.
I personally disagree from a legal standpoint and from in the interest of proper vaulting and safety!
What a coach who has 20 years in experience offers to his training program is not equal to the coach of a few years of coaching who reads this stuff. I cannot recommend such a practice!
I cannot speak for the other manufacturers on this matter.

[Decamouse]

A column does not need to be solid - unless that is another think being taught incorrectly - same goes for a beam - soap box is all your for the rest of the day

[PVJunkie]

So if your straight poleing.................does all this still hold true?? A pole will not break if your not bending it! Many masters do not bend the pole. The ones that do typically do not overbend the pole (some do but less enrgy into the system because we are slow and old compared to our 18yr old counterpart)

The reason this is all a major issue is 2 fold. First and foremost we now have a nation of pole benders instead of pole vaulters. Caoches are too worried about bending the pole instead of vaulting high. The second is there is not an idustry standard for wt ratings. 3 poles from 3 diff makers could all have the exact same relative stiffness on any of their systems and yet have 3 different wt ratings. Does that mean the highest rating is unsafe or is it a marketing poly to make the end users believe that they can jump on a bigger "X" than "Y" even though though they are the same pole. ie i can use a 175 "X" but can only use a 170 "Y" the X must be a better pole. Not to mention it CAN be proven that the lower on a pole you grip the STIFFER it is. I am not saying you can or should ignore the rules (the only organization in the WORLD with the wt rule is the US High School Federation). Are they leaders in safty, overly cautious or just limiting the ability of a less than adequate coach to create an unsafe situation. Even if you are on a pole rated at or above your wt and you are overbending it you are unsafe and putting an undue amount of stress on that pole. Should we then also put in place a max bend rule?? If you bend the pole greater than 110 degrees you must lower your grip or go to a stiffer pole. This would also lessen pole breaks due to over stress. A standard for flexing is a must to get past all of this.

[Bruce Caldwell]

marketing tool for monopolizing the market.

A standard for flexing is a must to get past all of this.

This will complicate the industry because we have too many people who do not understand that a flex number is a manufacturering internal test and not to be or cannot be an industry standard. There are far to many variables to standardize this test system. The people who are trying to standardize the flex chart do not understand what affects the numbers and why they are different on other brands!

I would not call a common flex chart a standard I would call it a marketing tool for monopolizing the market.
I think the straight pole vaulting speaks for itself, if I was not bending the pole I would still want the lightest and shortest pole I could carry.
Bryan you are "right on "in my opinion about the rest of your posting. If you throw under at take-off and crank the lever you are not using the proper efforts to bend the pole properly. We recommend that you jump with the pole / a flat take-off bends poles but does nothing for the vault itself.
And yes you can be on a pole at or over your weight and still break the pole with poor vaulting technique

[PVJunkie]

FAR FROM A MAKETING TOOL

HOW IN THE WORLD COULD YOU "MONOPOLIZE" THE MARKET WITH SOMETHING THATS FOR THE COACHES AND VAULTERS NOT THE POLE MAKERS?!?!?!

You may call it a marketing tool.........however I would disagree. If overbending of a pole is bad we can say that any pole will break (eventually) if overbent. Then we go into the "relative" stiffness or "flex" of the pole. All of us use the same method with some differences in the spans and or mass used to attain the flex #. If this were standard (or some other BETTER method) then a 150 would be a 150 irregaurdless of the brand. Yes the performance characteristics would be different but the relative stiffness would be standard. Currently, with no standard, a co could "inflate" thier wt rating to SELL poles instead of weighting poles safely. Ultimatly the people who benefit from this is the vaulters and coaches. For 2 reasons. First if they switch brands they have an accurate way in which to determine the proper wt to order. Second, and most important, varying wts at different grip hts could be determined. ie a 14'pole wt rated at 160 could be gripped 6" lower and be max rated at 165, another 6" down and it could be a 170 and so on. THIS IS A "FOR EXAMPLE" AND IS NOT A REAL WORLD FACT OF THE ICREASE BASED ON GRIP HEIGHT!! Standardidized flexing COULD create such a scinario. Of course we are talking about reinventing the wheel here not just tweaking it. I stess that this IS possible and CAN be documented. We are all welcome to disagree however the only ones to suffer are the vaulters and coachs who get frustrated on a regular basis when purchasing poles from different manuf. Yes there is work to be done to make this a reality...........instead of looking at it as a wall it is merely a hurdle that is capable of being overcome to the benefit of all.

[rainbowgirl28]

I also do not see how a standardized flexing system/chart could be a marketing tool, assuming it was made by an independent body like the ASTM...