Education experience?

[AVC Coach]

With all due respect, I understand the importance of a strong educational background, but there is far more to being a good coach and teacher than being well versed in pedagogy and various teaching strategies.

Those are great to have in your portfolio, but the ability to apply them when necessary and apply them effectively is what really counts. You can build a car out of solid gold, but if it won't get you back and forth to work, it's just an expensive piece of junk.

I'm never going to know everything about what I teach, but I am confident that my students will learn exactly what I know and apply it to their benefit effectively. My kids go 100mph in the direction that I am leading them and sometimes that might be the wrong direction, but they believe in what I am teaching and trust in me as a coach, teacher and mentor. As I learn more, they learn more.

The ability to regurgitate information just because you know it is not what coaching is all about. Knowing the X's and O's is vital, but truly understanding how to actually play the game is more important.

[vaultman18]

Being a teacher does not mean it will make you a good coach. I think of myself as a good coach who is always looking to get better. I am not a school teacher nor do I ever want to be. To suggest that because someone is not a teacher they are in some way not as good is totally wrong. Some of the best coaches are teachers but more teachers coach than people from other professions.

[altius]

I expected to stir things up and it has happened! However the following quote sums it up.

"My kids go 100mph in the direction that I am leading them and sometimes that might be the wrong direction, but they believe in what I am teaching and trust in me as a coach, teacher and mentor."

My case is that if you have a sound theoretical background you are less likely to go 100mph in the wrong direction. Knowledge of pedagody - or the instructional process if you prefer - gives you the ability to reflect on what you are doing and to know when you ARE going in the wrong direction. Without it you are just continually experimenting and HOPING -or even worse, believing - that you are going in the right direction.

Would you rather fly with a pilot who understands exactly what they are doing and why they are doing it or would you prefer to go with someone who flies by the seat of their pants.

I believe that if you do not have a teaching background but want to be as effective as you can be, you should go out of your way to improve your knowledge of the instructional process either by reading or taking any available courses. Of course the same holds true of many of the important processes of coaching such as the conditioning process and the motivational process. Once you decide you want to coach you have a responsibility to become as knowledgeable as you can be in every facet on coaching. It just so happens that the instructional process is central to everything you do as a coach - in all sports.

As you will see from Chapters Two and Three of "Beginner to Bubka" I do understand that the instructional process is only one of the processes of effective coaching. Another of these processes is 'recruiting' and I sometimes think some college coaches are better at that than they are at teaching.

As I indicated in my previous post it is fairly easy to establish if someone is a good instructor - i will be in the USA in February and depending on where you live I could come and show you what I mean. Here I should point out that for the greater part of the last thirty years one of my major professional roles has been the assessment of potential teachers of physical education and of coaches. Note that I cannot begin to fix a car, television set, I am technologically challenged, cannot build or even paint a house or do any of a thousand things most folk can do - but i could tell you if you are good instructor or not -or even if you are as good a coach as you think you are because these issues can be assesse they are not just a matter of opinion.

However given that it is proving very difficult to convince most folk that there is one most efficient technical model for pole vaulting based on scientific principles, I seriously doubt that it will ever be possible to get moe than a few to accept that there are scientific principles of instruction -which can be mastered in the same way as the vault model can be mastered

[rainbowgirl28]

We all know some great vaulters who are great coaches and some great vaulters who are terrible coaches. We all know some people who were crappy vaulters and great coaches, and vice versa.

Having a background in teaching is definitely a positive thing. The things learned in the classroom can often be directly applied to sport.

But I think a lot of it can be learned intuitively if you have had good coaches and worked with other good coaches so you have something to model off of.

I was not an education major, but between the 3 colleges I went to, I took many classes for education majors and for PE teachers.

Most of the stuff that was taught in those classes that would be applicable to coaching was stuff I already knew. I guess it was nice to have it reinforced in a classroom setting, but I can't say it made a huge impact on my coaching knowledge.

Maybe it helps that I grew up in gymnastics, which is highly technical, so I inclined to look at things from that angle. I don't know.


I think both sides of this argument have good points. Coaches with a non teaching background would usually benefit from an effort to review materials in this area and reinforce things they may or may not already know.

Coaches with a teaching background should not assume other coaches don't know the things you picked up in school. Just because you learned them in a classroom, doesn't mean someone else can't pick them up on the field and understand them, even if they couldn't write an academic paper on the subject.

[htheodore]

The certified teacher/coach and the coach who is not a certified teacher are both in the same business... Education. As coaches, we are educating/teaching kids the art of pole vaulting. I know many excellent vault coaches that have never been in a classroom, but have great people skills and the ability to get kids to understand the hows and whys of vaulting. I know coaches that have never vaulted, that have coached high school vaulters over 17'. I have known coaches that were excellent teachers, but terrible when it came to coaching anything (could'nt relate to kids outside of the classroom). I have seen coaches who are very knowledgable in pole vaulting, but can't teach the vault. Knowlege of the event is a high priority, obviously for safety, but one must have an understanding of each athlete. You must know what your vaulters are going to do under any circumstance. You have to treat each vaulter as an individual. Not only are you a coach, you are a psycologyst. I was an average student and have no desire to be in the classroom. I have been involved in pole vaulting since the 6th grade and chose to be a P.E. teacher in order to coach vaulters. have coached vaulters at the high school and jr. high level from day 1 and have loved every minute of it. Do I know everything about vaulting? Not hardly. I thought I did when I first started, but have learned more the past 6 years from studying and listening to other coaches, some of which are not certified teachers/coaches. I am in my 22nd year of teaching/coaching. It has been pretty good. The vaulters have had succsess vaulting, but what is more important to me is that they have a great experience vaulting from jr. high through high school. In order for any athlete to be successfull, they must enjoy their sport of choice. They must have fun! So far I haven't had anybody get hurt in 22 years from vaulting. Don't get me wrong, formal education is a wonderful thing to have, but my knowledge of vaulting and coaching has come from years of experience and keeping an open mind.

[altius]

"Just because you learned them -- (the things you picked up in school) - in a classroom, doesn't mean someone else can't pick them up on the field and understand them."

An interesting thought SWMBO - is that how classes operate in the US - you go along and PICK UP things/knowledge?? Is the only reason you go to college to get your degree is because you must have certification to teach - you dont - even expect to - learn anything useful there?

Hope that same system doesnt operate in Medicine (Sorry), qualifying as a pilot/dentist or any of a thousand roles in modern society which require knowledge and skills. Of course you can learn on the job, but you will learn faster if you have some preparation for the role - and you will be able to function and improve -- without doing too much damage to your clients.

Th Arabs have a lot of good proverbs. In our PE teacher education progam at UniSA we used one as a theme to keep us on track. It is "The barber learns his trade on the orphan's chin" . We operated - sorry again - on the basis that we could not rely on a good supply of orphans for our students to practice on so we prepared them to function safely and effectively from day one of their appointment in a school - where most kids have parents. Not perfectly note - just safely and effectively. The formal mission statement was - "To prepare teachers who could first survive and then grow in the schools of Australia". A bit pompous perhaps but it gave us some direction.

Of course if you have an unending supply of orphans to practice on, there is a good chance you will eventually get better at shaving people - or even coaching them to pole vault. If all of the coaches who feel that they have become good coaches have done so without any formal training in the principles of instruction, I can only assume that you have a lot of 'orphans' in the USA.. Either that or teaching and coaching the vault are a lot easier than I have found them to be.

Anyway I can contribute no more to this debate - so no further correspondence will be entered into on this topic by this author. However I suppose at some point I may have to detail my own background so as to provide some validity to my opinion on this issue.

[rainbowgirl28]

There are two different types of education that are being mixed up here.

1. Collegiate classroom experience in the field of education.

2. Pole vault education experience gained from attending camps, clinics, lectures, reading books, etc.

The first type of education is beneficial in applying the second. But I'll take the second type of education over the first any day when I am looking for a coach.

Is Alex Parnov a school teacher?

I chose to transfer to a university that was a joke academically, so I could learn more about the sport. I was not in a program to earn a teaching certificate, and I gave up on learning anything useful there after my first semester. I gained a lot from being there, but it was mostly things learned outside the classroom. I did not pick up anything in any of my classes that I didn't already know about coaching.

Teaching and coaching the VAULT is not the same as teaching a PE class.

The coaches who frequent this site are the ones who are actively seeking to gain knowledge and improve their skills. Insulting them by telling them all they are less of a coach because they were not an education major in college is retarded. You can gain an education in the principles of instruction without ever cracking open a textbook.

If you want to tell the high schoolers on here that they need to be education majors to ever be a good coach, then fine, but 99% of the coaches on here do not have the time/money/interest to go back to college and get a new major.

The best way you could contribute is to enlighten us on the areas of pedagogy you think we are lacking in, rather than criticizing us for something that is not in our power to change.

[bjvando]

as a friend has told me over and over.... (thanks dafox)

"proof is in the pudding"


You can have all your special degrees on the wall, your phd's masters, bachelors in education..blah blah...

1. but the thing we should cherish the most is the 'thank you' letter from an athlete whose life we've changed- Not only because we may have had an affect on their vaulting performance, but becuase we, as coaches, may have had a positive impact on thier lives....THAT is why i coach...

2. Now- We may be a coach that make great pepole and not such great vaulters....It depends on where our motivation is- Each particular athlete has a certain need in life.. As coaches, I believe, we have a duty to figure that out. What good is a vaulter who jumps real high but lives an immoral, unethical life? whats stoping them from going out and finding these 'miracle drugs' or just plain old street drugs..... its the COACH that stops them from that.

3. now for the pudding- Numbers don't lie- if we improve a vaulter 8-12" a year performace a year, then what does it matter what kind of education background we have? we're doing our job- could we be better- YES! everyoen could be better, thats what keeps us doing what we're doing as coaches and athletes, but if you're coaching is consistantly helping vaulters vault better and higher, then job well done and we got our pudding.... (ps- i really enjoy chocolate pudding)

[altius]

Well when the boss chastises you , you have to respond. First of all - with the possible exception of my reaction to the coach who seemed proud that he could take his athletes 100% in the wrong direction - i do not believe I criticised ANYONE.

Secondly I am NOT saying you cannot coach if you have no teaching qualifications. I AM saying that --- all things being equal -- you will be a better coach if you are a qualified teacher - otherwise what is the qualification good for?

Of course you can 'learn on the job' - but at what cost to your clients? This is why all serious professions require their practitioners to demonstrate their knowledge and some competence before they begin 'practicing'. Not only that but many professions require regular inservice training - and in the case of pilots for example, stringent checks on their performance.

To teach or coach anything - at the very least you need domain specific knowledge and an understanding of the instructional process. While the common myth that 'anyone can teach' still persists little can be done to convince folk of their limitations as instructors, especially when no one ever watches them 'teach'. Yet there is evidence that many junior coaches in my country at least, do not understand or apply the most fundamental principles of instruction and so do not maximise the value of the experience they provide. Perhaps that is not the case in the USA with the pole vault - but i suspect it is.

With regard to Alex Parnov, you may have noted that I indicated in an earlier post that all professional coaches in Europe complete a four year degree course in Sports Science and Pedagogy. I believe Alex completed his degree at the University of Moscow so although he has chosen to become an Elite coach he would be qualified to teach physical education in a Russian school. I am not certain but I suspect the same things applies to Vitaly Petrov.

Clearly emotion has replaced objectivity on this topic so there is little to be gained from my pursuing it further. However I will see if it is possible to run a workshop on the instructional process in association with the Bagget clinic on feb 3/4 next year. If I am in Reno I will be happy to discuss the issue further at that time.

[rainbowgirl28]

Well when the boss chastises you , you have to respond. First of all - with the possible exception of my reaction to the coach who seemed proud that he could take his athletes 100% in the wrong direction - i do not believe I criticised ANYONE.

And yet everyone who read this that was not a teacher took it as criticism...

[ADTF Academy]

Going into PE education in the US is committing career suicide.


Nothing personal, but we have an abundence of people in college educational settings here in the states. The number of jobs is not as high.


Due to this fact any logical person would of not taken on this major.


Why is it that learning in a classroom setting is more important than learning in the field.

You can read a book anywhere. If you want knowledge you can gain it at any time.

If you want classroom experience you can get it. You don't have to have a teaching degree. Subsitutes can be of any major. They do not have to be education majors.

If you wanted that experience you can get it without getting the degree.


Here is a good one for you. Is there a difference between a club/youth coach and an National Level coach? Do these two types of coaches need the same backgrounds and coaching regiment?

[baggettpv]

How come nobody is asking what pedogogy is? Or effective teaching tools? Or what the 7 Intelligences are? Or what makes a good teacher?
Like Altius said about the Europen coaches, They all have a 4 year degree in Sport Science. I worked with Andjei Kzinski for a year and he has a degree in Sport Science and told me they all did. Also that Vitaly Petrov was one of his students in later study...

Interesting responses.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC