When do you change pole lengths?
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Tim McMichael
- PV Master
- Posts: 714
- Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:36 pm
- Expertise: Current college and private coach. Former elite vaulter.
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lonestar
- PV Lover
- Posts: 1475
- Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2002 12:23 am
- Location: New Braunfels, TX
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A lot of what length poles my kids jump on is dictated by the stiffness of the pole they are on and where it falls in my club series. Generally, I prefer my kids to be gripping within the top 8" of the pole, and I wish the NFHS would let them cap them. With my series though, the stiffness progression generally has them gripping within that top 8" when they're ready for that stiffness - just luck, or talent??? They generally are close to 5lb increments, but sometimes a little more or a little less because they're done by flex number, all within .8-1.2 apart.
Our pole progression:
10'8 88
10'8 99
10'8 110
10'8 121
10'8 132
11'6 105
11'6 110
11'6 114
11'6 118
11'6 123
12'4 114
12'4 123
12'4 127
12'4 132
12'4 136
12'4 140
12'4 145
12'4 149
13'1 140
13'1 145
13'1 151
13'1 156
13'1 162
13'7 151
13'7 156
13'7 162
13'7 167
14'1 156
14'1 160
14'1 167
14'7 160
14'7 167
15'1 154
15'1 158
15'1 162
15'1 167
15'1 173
15'1 178
15'1 182
15'7 170
15'7 175
Our pole progression:
10'8 88
10'8 99
10'8 110
10'8 121
10'8 132
11'6 105
11'6 110
11'6 114
11'6 118
11'6 123
12'4 114
12'4 123
12'4 127
12'4 132
12'4 136
12'4 140
12'4 145
12'4 149
13'1 140
13'1 145
13'1 151
13'1 156
13'1 162
13'7 151
13'7 156
13'7 162
13'7 167
14'1 156
14'1 160
14'1 167
14'7 160
14'7 167
15'1 154
15'1 158
15'1 162
15'1 167
15'1 173
15'1 178
15'1 182
15'7 170
15'7 175
Any scientist who can't explain to an eight-year-old what he is doing is a charlatan. K Vonnegut
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rainbowgirl28
- I'm in Charge
- Posts: 30435
- Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2002 1:59 pm
- Expertise: Former College Vaulter, I coach and officiate as life allows
- Lifetime Best: 11'6"
- Gender: Female
- World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
- Favorite Vaulter: Casey Carrigan
- Location: A Temperate Island
- Contact:
lonestar wrote:Generally, I prefer my kids to be gripping within the top 8" of the pole, and I wish the NFHS would let them cap them.
The NFHS leaves it up to the manufacturer. I think ESSX generally puts all their labels at the top of the pole, and Gill is phasing in new labels that are also at the very top of the pole. That puts you within 1.5" of the top.
Tim McM: Great, Fascinating stuff
I like the 15' grip 18' vault stuff. and runs over 14 steps I like.
And your talk about the top phase of the vault on longer poles, and with longer runs, has winning smart written all over it.
If ya want to blow off the background and vault thoughts stuff go right to the blue font paragraphs towards the end of this. only a half mile down this page . There is my real Bottom line. Shouldve put it up front. uh. Good idea. Anyhow I PROMISE NOT TO EVER EVER WRITE THIS MUCH YUK AGAIN> Sorry in advance. But you'll forgive eh?
Be patient with me if ya can, and have insominia too? chuckle. I'll ramble a bit here in my effort to share with ya how my kid I coach (who last year was an 11th grader vaulting for his third track season in his life) and I, approach what we have learned is important to master in the various phases of the vault.....Not to much....... just to let ya know his strentghs, weaknesses, and his style.
My HS junior I coach, last year had two runs. His do anything in any condition, just pop a bar to win a dual meet 5 step and his lanky lefty, good looking 8 step, that had him flying down the runway regularly and consistantly. The only exception to consistantly (i'll be smarter coach this year) we had on that 8 step was during those stupid rain meets or warm up and wait 2 hours for 1 run thru meets, when we occassionally would get caught, no matter the warm up we tried. We'd get caught slow (and naturally a bit out ) on the first pass, and then warmed and ready, just like we had thought on pass one, he'd be haulin and the real step would show up and he'd be under a foot for the second, and those darn ripps make it extra hard to stay back for the good quick tap. Takes an even quicker pivot at the hips to rockback to stay with the pole and invert.
He does this well when the take off timing is right. By that I mean it all starts from simply an appropriate take off point. He's behind timing if he's under and right on can stay with the pole phases nice if he's on or slightlyout. He'll be smarter as will I on this.
Because with a takeoff step somewhere between say 2inches under to 6-8 inches out, he can take advantage of his speed on that 8step, and the nice ankleling over to get that pop pop last step. He then always leads his take off with chest and chin, tall hips, both hands high, the right amount of lead knee and trail leg back with its slight bend at the knee, ready to slap a hard fast tap, toe to-the-box, thats over by time his trail leg/foot/toe points at the box and you can draw a line back up that leg thru hips straight thru his shoulders, arm to the top of the plant hand.
And that pole bends bunches extra and rolls over bunches better with a takeoff and tap like that. He doesn't creep up the pole while inverted, half way turned, too often, but he'll handstand from there.
And right before that flat out vertical hand stand, is usually where he gets his first glance at where he is height wise and depth wise before deciding how he's gonna come off the pole. Thats where we are.
He had a pretty good year, but bad luck at the end. Mid season he went 14'7" at MtSac Invite in the rain. Went 14-3, 14-4 many times in cold and rainy weather at some good size invites to place above his seed every time in top 3's. Could usually start at 14'0 if needed. He was 5-9+, 130lbs, vaulted on Pacer Fx 14'6"155, legal cap grip.
And at years end prior to the big meets that lead to state,(Mid May)we transistioned easliy from 14-6 to 15 footer right before Finals. He was blowing thru a 15' 155 spirit, with take offs good, hands stands good, doing nothing new that he hadn't been doing all season around 14-15 foot heights.. except we started jumping at alot higher bars. That changed his timing a bit and made hand stands a regular occurance not an occassional oh boy!. He put air on bungies multiple times the week before finals at 15'6" and 16'0" using the 15' 155.
We thought we were ready..other than the flu virius we both had all week, that wasn't gonna phase him.We got jinxed when it mattered by that good ol big meet, too many 12-6 vaulters, mega delay , no warm up except one run thru after 2 plus hours in the sun, with the darn virus just for shits and giggles and n extra challenge.
Slow and a bit out 6 inches on the first pass 1 vault in 2 1/2 hours. Took it with the small pole on the14-6 155 , air on it came down on it. Stds at 80. Our usuall second pass was normal and therefore fast compared to first, especially as he moved his step up half the out distance from vault one (we won't make these athlete/coach mistakes next year, we have a cpouple easy eways to reamedy this)
But anyhow, under on the second vault a foot plus but still buried the 15-150, third vault, moved step back, not enough. This time all is nice, he is finally getting three vaults without hours in between....good rythmn, nice strides, pulling feet through fast from right under his a**, feet over knees foward, tall hips, RIPP...under 12inches at least, but smashed that 15-155., with standards at 80. Tappped it on the way up! We ran out of pole on crummy vaults, standards slammed back.
So here we are today. A bunch stronger after high bars and weights since June plus he is still growing. Docs say he sholud get to 6-0 6-1. And still a fire no doubt he has. We want to get him on 15-6 poles early this year.
We stayed on the transistion 14-6 poles slightly too long last year. It was good, he never would have made the transistion 14' straight to 15'. To many things different. Now I understand we cant boast like we are ready for longer sticks until we start jumpin regularliy 2'+ above grip and the like. Because he's not regularliy going 2.5' over his grip (bout half that 1.25' on 14-7"). But I've seen it at 15-6 and 16-0
But in the mean time on the good vaults, 8 step, he's just crushin it, standards slammed back and he's runnin out of grip, so we gotta move up to longer sticks per say. Its either that or heavier . And although he has vaulted well on 160s, and it shoots him like no tomarrow off the top, it just takes so much darn energy to hit that vault and execute it, weighin in at 130 wet. So we trade off less full runs usually. But I'm open.
and in the mean time we will need to learn the part you intrigued me about the most, for sure to be a 17 foot HS PVr....that part you discussed briefly on how to get in sync with the timing of the pole, know what position he needs be in, in relationship to himself and the pole, the phase that the pole is in, and moving to, his depth, and how to get so much more out of it when it looks to the layman the vault is finished ,....
yep you know...your shins are barely over that crossbar, the pole is vertical and near straight and your 18" from clearance, and you need the same in depth to get ya there.
Can you help us understand that part of the vault from what youve learned. What should he expect to feel position wise versus pole velocity. How does that change as we move to perhaps a 9 or 10 step and move towards 15-6 and 16 foot poles?? How do you know if your too slow or too fast for that timing? what typical a shits happen that are sure signs of---------.
Right now we are gonna just plan to get in final bubka up invert position quicker with more agressive and excellant take off, tap, waist-pivot rockback, invert, creep up and turn all by time we would have just been inverted and starring at the bar last year assessing how vertical to go based on depth and how hard to do that based on height margin. From here on I know nothing. I'll gladly listen and head. So sorry for the thesis. But it is very important to my kid and very important to me, that I can not afford to error dramatically here no matter how confident we feel about our training approach . Were confident but I like what you said and I'm smart enough to get experience the cheap way...thru others who are willing to share. He'll be in shape and a fine technically sound runner, agile and fearless.
Fact is Tim McM. you've been there, and you can described things in terms I comprehend. I want to coach this HS athlete and give him the absolute best chances for him to reach his dreams to vault D-1 in College. Who knows but doesn't hurt to have big goals.
There is nothing he won't do 24-7-365. I just don't want to be the steep part of his/our learning curve when he can ill afford inefficiencies I bring to the team. I mean we'll both own what ever we do and we'll live and love to vault no matter win or loose..But....this opportunity comes around just this once for his HS vault days.
We have two brand new 16-1 Carbon Fxs (150 and 155) we hope to be ready for by june next year. We have 15 150 155 160 and our 15-6s arrive december. I really believe the kid has the speed, and technical mechanics plus an uncanny 3 dimensional awarness flyin up top, that he really could go 17 feet, ....if we practice and focus on the right things not the wrong ones.
He's not super strong but he has a really strong torso and upper body thats been doing bubkas and rockbacks on high bars, trapezes and such for the last 2 years. He can bench 200, has good technical clings, and over is 300 in sets of ten front squats. And he is still 133 lbs, now 5-11. Still a lefty. He can run a 52.0 on a dirt track in Jan and a 10.8/9 100 on a good track early too, 4.4/4.5 40 on dirt, in Jan and a nice 200 also (low 23s in january/feb).
Tell you what Tim McM. If you actually are so sleep deprived that you read this. I'll give ya free room and transpo at our cabin at Lake tahoe and back and forth to Reno (my old college stompin grounds) If you get out to the Reno Vault Summit. We'll be there for sure. If no Reno best I can offer a man who trys this reading treatment for insomnia is buy ya dinner at Fresno Indoor early Jan. And if that dont work thanks for stimulating my thoughts and forcing me to write some of this done. Good coaching documentation anyhow.
Warm Regards
Run Fast Hold High and Fly
coach Chip
PS that HS vaulter is my son, and we enjoy the time we've shared during his Hs days being a vaulter. Its his dreams and goals, I'm just helping to facilitate.
PSS And that doesn't even count the challenges we've really both delt with too, as last year I was diagnosed with a brain tumor. But, it all is out, thanx to good ol USC Nuero dudes....benign and never turns ugly and I can still see and remember way too much. We are really pretty normal. My kid far more so than I. see ya. I hope
PSSS
Miss vault Rainbow girl. You do alot for vaulters all over. You going to Reno? My son and I and another HS vaulter, gladly extent that same invite that we gave to Tim MCM for Digs at Tahoe/Reno. No charge. No gimmics. No Agendas. We can easily accomodate ya both. Check air fare. Its a fun gig!
And your talk about the top phase of the vault on longer poles, and with longer runs, has winning smart written all over it.
If ya want to blow off the background and vault thoughts stuff go right to the blue font paragraphs towards the end of this. only a half mile down this page . There is my real Bottom line. Shouldve put it up front. uh. Good idea. Anyhow I PROMISE NOT TO EVER EVER WRITE THIS MUCH YUK AGAIN> Sorry in advance. But you'll forgive eh?
Be patient with me if ya can, and have insominia too? chuckle. I'll ramble a bit here in my effort to share with ya how my kid I coach (who last year was an 11th grader vaulting for his third track season in his life) and I, approach what we have learned is important to master in the various phases of the vault.....Not to much....... just to let ya know his strentghs, weaknesses, and his style.
My HS junior I coach, last year had two runs. His do anything in any condition, just pop a bar to win a dual meet 5 step and his lanky lefty, good looking 8 step, that had him flying down the runway regularly and consistantly. The only exception to consistantly (i'll be smarter coach this year) we had on that 8 step was during those stupid rain meets or warm up and wait 2 hours for 1 run thru meets, when we occassionally would get caught, no matter the warm up we tried. We'd get caught slow (and naturally a bit out ) on the first pass, and then warmed and ready, just like we had thought on pass one, he'd be haulin and the real step would show up and he'd be under a foot for the second, and those darn ripps make it extra hard to stay back for the good quick tap. Takes an even quicker pivot at the hips to rockback to stay with the pole and invert.
He does this well when the take off timing is right. By that I mean it all starts from simply an appropriate take off point. He's behind timing if he's under and right on can stay with the pole phases nice if he's on or slightlyout. He'll be smarter as will I on this.
Because with a takeoff step somewhere between say 2inches under to 6-8 inches out, he can take advantage of his speed on that 8step, and the nice ankleling over to get that pop pop last step. He then always leads his take off with chest and chin, tall hips, both hands high, the right amount of lead knee and trail leg back with its slight bend at the knee, ready to slap a hard fast tap, toe to-the-box, thats over by time his trail leg/foot/toe points at the box and you can draw a line back up that leg thru hips straight thru his shoulders, arm to the top of the plant hand.
And that pole bends bunches extra and rolls over bunches better with a takeoff and tap like that. He doesn't creep up the pole while inverted, half way turned, too often, but he'll handstand from there.
And right before that flat out vertical hand stand, is usually where he gets his first glance at where he is height wise and depth wise before deciding how he's gonna come off the pole. Thats where we are.
He had a pretty good year, but bad luck at the end. Mid season he went 14'7" at MtSac Invite in the rain. Went 14-3, 14-4 many times in cold and rainy weather at some good size invites to place above his seed every time in top 3's. Could usually start at 14'0 if needed. He was 5-9+, 130lbs, vaulted on Pacer Fx 14'6"155, legal cap grip.
And at years end prior to the big meets that lead to state,(Mid May)we transistioned easliy from 14-6 to 15 footer right before Finals. He was blowing thru a 15' 155 spirit, with take offs good, hands stands good, doing nothing new that he hadn't been doing all season around 14-15 foot heights.. except we started jumping at alot higher bars. That changed his timing a bit and made hand stands a regular occurance not an occassional oh boy!. He put air on bungies multiple times the week before finals at 15'6" and 16'0" using the 15' 155.
We thought we were ready..other than the flu virius we both had all week, that wasn't gonna phase him.We got jinxed when it mattered by that good ol big meet, too many 12-6 vaulters, mega delay , no warm up except one run thru after 2 plus hours in the sun, with the darn virus just for shits and giggles and n extra challenge.
Slow and a bit out 6 inches on the first pass 1 vault in 2 1/2 hours. Took it with the small pole on the14-6 155 , air on it came down on it. Stds at 80. Our usuall second pass was normal and therefore fast compared to first, especially as he moved his step up half the out distance from vault one (we won't make these athlete/coach mistakes next year, we have a cpouple easy eways to reamedy this)
But anyhow, under on the second vault a foot plus but still buried the 15-150, third vault, moved step back, not enough. This time all is nice, he is finally getting three vaults without hours in between....good rythmn, nice strides, pulling feet through fast from right under his a**, feet over knees foward, tall hips, RIPP...under 12inches at least, but smashed that 15-155., with standards at 80. Tappped it on the way up! We ran out of pole on crummy vaults, standards slammed back.
So here we are today. A bunch stronger after high bars and weights since June plus he is still growing. Docs say he sholud get to 6-0 6-1. And still a fire no doubt he has. We want to get him on 15-6 poles early this year.
We stayed on the transistion 14-6 poles slightly too long last year. It was good, he never would have made the transistion 14' straight to 15'. To many things different. Now I understand we cant boast like we are ready for longer sticks until we start jumpin regularliy 2'+ above grip and the like. Because he's not regularliy going 2.5' over his grip (bout half that 1.25' on 14-7"). But I've seen it at 15-6 and 16-0
But in the mean time on the good vaults, 8 step, he's just crushin it, standards slammed back and he's runnin out of grip, so we gotta move up to longer sticks per say. Its either that or heavier . And although he has vaulted well on 160s, and it shoots him like no tomarrow off the top, it just takes so much darn energy to hit that vault and execute it, weighin in at 130 wet. So we trade off less full runs usually. But I'm open.
and in the mean time we will need to learn the part you intrigued me about the most, for sure to be a 17 foot HS PVr....that part you discussed briefly on how to get in sync with the timing of the pole, know what position he needs be in, in relationship to himself and the pole, the phase that the pole is in, and moving to, his depth, and how to get so much more out of it when it looks to the layman the vault is finished ,....
yep you know...your shins are barely over that crossbar, the pole is vertical and near straight and your 18" from clearance, and you need the same in depth to get ya there.
Can you help us understand that part of the vault from what youve learned. What should he expect to feel position wise versus pole velocity. How does that change as we move to perhaps a 9 or 10 step and move towards 15-6 and 16 foot poles?? How do you know if your too slow or too fast for that timing? what typical a shits happen that are sure signs of---------.
Right now we are gonna just plan to get in final bubka up invert position quicker with more agressive and excellant take off, tap, waist-pivot rockback, invert, creep up and turn all by time we would have just been inverted and starring at the bar last year assessing how vertical to go based on depth and how hard to do that based on height margin. From here on I know nothing. I'll gladly listen and head. So sorry for the thesis. But it is very important to my kid and very important to me, that I can not afford to error dramatically here no matter how confident we feel about our training approach . Were confident but I like what you said and I'm smart enough to get experience the cheap way...thru others who are willing to share. He'll be in shape and a fine technically sound runner, agile and fearless.
Fact is Tim McM. you've been there, and you can described things in terms I comprehend. I want to coach this HS athlete and give him the absolute best chances for him to reach his dreams to vault D-1 in College. Who knows but doesn't hurt to have big goals.
There is nothing he won't do 24-7-365. I just don't want to be the steep part of his/our learning curve when he can ill afford inefficiencies I bring to the team. I mean we'll both own what ever we do and we'll live and love to vault no matter win or loose..But....this opportunity comes around just this once for his HS vault days.
We have two brand new 16-1 Carbon Fxs (150 and 155) we hope to be ready for by june next year. We have 15 150 155 160 and our 15-6s arrive december. I really believe the kid has the speed, and technical mechanics plus an uncanny 3 dimensional awarness flyin up top, that he really could go 17 feet, ....if we practice and focus on the right things not the wrong ones.
He's not super strong but he has a really strong torso and upper body thats been doing bubkas and rockbacks on high bars, trapezes and such for the last 2 years. He can bench 200, has good technical clings, and over is 300 in sets of ten front squats. And he is still 133 lbs, now 5-11. Still a lefty. He can run a 52.0 on a dirt track in Jan and a 10.8/9 100 on a good track early too, 4.4/4.5 40 on dirt, in Jan and a nice 200 also (low 23s in january/feb).
Tell you what Tim McM. If you actually are so sleep deprived that you read this. I'll give ya free room and transpo at our cabin at Lake tahoe and back and forth to Reno (my old college stompin grounds) If you get out to the Reno Vault Summit. We'll be there for sure. If no Reno best I can offer a man who trys this reading treatment for insomnia is buy ya dinner at Fresno Indoor early Jan. And if that dont work thanks for stimulating my thoughts and forcing me to write some of this done. Good coaching documentation anyhow.
Warm Regards
Run Fast Hold High and Fly
coach Chip
PS that HS vaulter is my son, and we enjoy the time we've shared during his Hs days being a vaulter. Its his dreams and goals, I'm just helping to facilitate.
PSS And that doesn't even count the challenges we've really both delt with too, as last year I was diagnosed with a brain tumor. But, it all is out, thanx to good ol USC Nuero dudes....benign and never turns ugly and I can still see and remember way too much. We are really pretty normal. My kid far more so than I. see ya. I hope
PSSS
Miss vault Rainbow girl. You do alot for vaulters all over. You going to Reno? My son and I and another HS vaulter, gladly extent that same invite that we gave to Tim MCM for Digs at Tahoe/Reno. No charge. No gimmics. No Agendas. We can easily accomodate ya both. Check air fare. Its a fun gig!
-
Tim McMichael
- PV Master
- Posts: 714
- Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:36 pm
- Expertise: Current college and private coach. Former elite vaulter.
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