Atkins Attack Vault Technique

[CLCPV04]

I thought I would chime in again because I noticed that this topic was 'closed'.

I think the main benefit of an open forum is the freedom of ideas to be effectively weighed and analyzed.

To stifle this outlet of ideas and sharing is to hinder the very benefits of pole-vault-power and what makes it so popular.

What was the purpose of your original post? I imagine the original question was posed to get feedback on the "Atkins" approach presented to your athlete. Those who believe they are knowledgeable replied back with their honest opinions. That is not to say they are necessarily right. One drawback of open forums is that anyone, anywhere can make comments whether or not they are actually qualified to make them. Take the answers you got with a grain of salt and look for more information. Altius is a very well respected coach world-wide. VTechVaulter is an elite-level All-American. I think all of these people were trying to help you by giving their honest opinions. There are some really great resources out there (including this forum) to help you decide what approach to the vault will be best for your athlete.

People come here every day to ask questions, pose new ideas, ask for advice and opinions. Everyone involved should be able to respectfully comment on an idea or thought without worrying about whether or not their unabridged comments will cause a topic to be "closed". I think the moderators do a good job of editing out the 'objectionable, or offensive', but I do not think forum topics should ever be closed. If a particular poster becomes out of hand, moderators could abridge that one poster's comment abilities.


Thoughts?

[bvpv07]

Notice that the topic is not locked.

Mods will sometimes close topics (or delete the original material) if the replies are not deemed constructive and turn into a "bash fest." I'd like to think that the posts are made with good, although somewhat sarcastic (hey, I have no problem with that), intentions.

However, what from the responses was really all that constructive? The general opinion that this "attack" is not the way to go was established and from there it turned into a series of comments that failed to elaborate on how one should perform the vault (other than several suggestions to buy BTB) and succeeded in elaborating on personal opinions of this coach.

It's great for this kind of a "warning" to be told to the original poster by those who have experience behind them, but what's the point of having the same opinion (on the character of an individual that a reader may or may not know) be said fifty times?

[bvpv07]

Oh, and was it a mod who changed the original post to "closed" or the poster himself (it says that it was edited once today)?

[rainbowgirl28]

None of the moderators touched this post as far as I know. The original poster apparently did not like the response they got.

My number one policy on this board is be nice.

I don't think anyone has been mean in this thread. I think a good and interesting discussion is being had about the coaching methods that one U.S. coach says he uses on his website.

I won't allow personal attacks or name calling, but if you guys can be mature and keep this on topic, I think this warrants further discussion.

Alan, I, as well as several others, would enjoy hearing your specific comments about the pictures posted earlier in the thread.

[rainbowgirl28]

Since the original poster deleted their post, I will repost what is on the Fiberbenders website.

http://www.fiberbenders.com/BIOs/BIO_LanceAtkins.htm

From his culmination of 21 years of coaching ... Coach Atkins has in the last several years... feels he has refined and improved upon the Russian "PETROV model" of "pole jumping", THE technique which many of the European jumpers right now utilize. Vladamir Petrov was personal coach to 6x world champion, 1988 Olympic Champion, and 36x world record holder...Sergei Bubka These refinements that has dubbed "the ATKINS ATTACK" has made the planting phase (the last five steps) more balanced, more simplified & more efficient. It makes planting the pole more consistent and gives the vaulter a stronger, faster, & more powerful takeoff into the pole. This efficency enables the vaulter to get on longer and heavier poles quicker than the now conve3ntionally used styles.

[vaultmd]

Its really sad to see people attack someone they don't know.
Thanks allot. I did not want to turn this into a bashing post.
At least someone is trying to improve the sport and help the younger vaulter. Look alittle more at his web pages. He's coached alot of great vaulters.

Don't assume that all of us don't know him. I've known him for almost 30 years and happen to think he's a nice guy.

The pictures speak for themselves.

[altius]

As most of you guys know I am often in trouble with my comments on PVP so I would have preferred not to comment on the "Atkins attack". However I have already recieved two private messages -and expect more -that have expressed concern about the methods this coach uses. That is one reason for responding. The second is that in my view Vitali Petrov is the greatest Track and Field coach on the planet - and over the past fifty years I have met many of the great ones. For anyone to claim that they have improved on his methods is patently ludicrous and can only be the result of immense hubris or a desire for self promotion.

If and I realise that it is a big if -the images posted above actually represent the best efforts of athletes employing the 'Atkins attack' method then the whole thing bcomes a joke. After all a model is a model so every athlete exposed to the model should look very much alike -at least to a coach who understands the event. THe only similarities I can pick from the images are a grip which is too wide and a tendency to load the pole with the bottom arm - not the top arm. Neither is good.

Looking at individuals - the young lad being supported by the coach has a greatly flexed left leg - instead of being athletically straight with a slight flex - and has driven the right knee above the horizontal when it should drive and 'block' when it is parallel with the ground. Grip too died and shoulders turned.

Number two in the sequence has lost her legs as she swings forward and will never be able to get her hips above her shoulders from that position - and again the grip is too wide with the left arm loading the pole not the right. Number 3 - the same athlete as in 2?? has lost the right leg- ie it is swinging forward in an uncontrolled manner - and has clearly not 'finished the take off' - look at the flex in the left leg.

4 shows another athlete who has not finished the take off - loading the pole with the left arm and I suspect taking off pretty flat - perphaps because he is looking down.

5. Shows a girl with a great take off BUT her grip is too wide - loading the pole with the right arm and her shoulders are turned. Dont know what she has jumped but my immediate reaction is that she has some potential - if she eliminates these problems.

6. Shows a posed position at take off. Again looking down at the box which must get you taking off flat - blocking with the left arm and again shoulders are turned.

So it is possible to see some common threads but they are all bad faults -they do not represent the Petrov model - or any other efficient model of pole vaulting.

Coaching the pole vault is not an easy business but as I suggested in BTB it is possible to teach young atlhetes to begin to jump like Bubka. I have also put my credibility on the line with the DVD which shows seven of my athletes in the period 2000/2004. Look at them and ask whether or not my claim is justified. It can be done, but through the Petrov model - not the Adkins attack.

[achtungpv]

I think the problem most have with the Atkin's Attack, other than the technical model, is that it comes off like a shady sales pitch. There's a lot of info included on his website that is misleading including pics of world class vaulters he's not coached but from the ambiguous nature of the webpage could be construed as having coached. Also there's a list of a lot of other decent vaulters that he doesn't coach as well. No coach should EVER take credit for athletes that have attended their camp. If you don't coach them day-in day-out you don't get credit. Who knows, maybe most of those vaulters may have jumped lower at his camp. We don't know. It just seems like he's selling snake oil.

[superpipe]

I couldn't agree more. My high school vaulting days were in the early 90's around Eastern PA. Lance Atkins was well known for taking coaching credit for vaulters that were already great because of their high school coaches. I'm not sure if Lance ever coached anyone from the beginning. He just took vaulters that were already coached well and had lots of natural talent and called them his own. I don't know Lance personally, but did attend his camp when it was still Skyjumpers, lead by Jan Johnson. I could be wrong, but I've never really heard great things about him except that his facility is great for training.

Don't mean to diss people, but just be aware. His facilities are pretty sweet.

[jumpbackin]

Based on those pictures, if they are represenative of what he is trying to teach, the guy is a disgrace. I know the basics of the vault but I'm sure I'm lacking on the finer points. If two elite coaches are discussing the finer points of a vault, I'm pretty much lost, but I can take one look at those pictures and I know it's all wrong.

I'd like to hear from some more of the vaulters that have attended his camps. Are those pictures really represenative of what he's coaching?

[CLCPV04]

I think whats tough about coaching is the widespread misconception that you have to BEND the pole and hold high to vault high.

Teaching an athlete to hold higher by wide-gripping, turning the shoulders at take-off and bending the pole more will usually produce short-term pay-off in the form of a higher vault. It also will bend the heck out of poles and look like something is being acomplished. BUT This is a trap and a huge problem to try and get out of. Some, though few, vaulters can have impeccable timing and accomplish the whole bend-then tuck and hope to get there in time and find great success in this. For most, though, its a dead-end trap that can even be dangerous. Most athletes who use this technique find themselves overbending poles, holding too high, and sitting over bars, only able to get their hips above their bottom hands.

Where does this misconception come from? If you freeze frame nearly every elite athlete, you see them either just before take-off with solid straight arms, or just off the ground with both arms fully extended with both arms seemingly BLOCKED out. The problem is that many coaches see this one photo, this one frame and then think getting the arms straight is necesary. Whats more important is what happens after take-off. Shoulders must be open to allow a swing. For some athletes, depending on their grip, open shoulders means a really bent bottom arm. For others, open shoulders is a nearly straight bottom arm. All depends on your angles and where you are holding. One thing is certain: blocking like those photos show and forcefully bending the pole will prevent you from swinging properly and vaulting efficiently. Its pole-vaulting, not pole-bending!

[JumpinJackFlash]

I had a real problem with Lance taking credit for athletes he did not coach on a day to day basis. Going to one camp immediately makes an athlete "his protege" and he uses their eventual successes to his advantage to market his program. Deceptive advertising to say the least.

A good example is Julianne Toto. Here is a quote from Lance's website about Julianne:

Fiberbender vaulter JULIANNE TOTO, who was this year's Penn Relays Champion and one of the top female jumpers in the Nation. JULIANNE TOTO, who has had a very stellar year of her own since she came to our camp two years ago a 9-0 vaulter where she learned to bend the pole for the first time. She has certainly taken off from there winning her Indoor State Meet and then scoring a huge victory outdoors at the Penn Relays against the best jumpers on the East. "Jules" then went on to win her Outdoor State Group title and finish 3rd at the overall State Championship the following Wednesday (called the Meet of Champions). Toto who is a still competing gymnast calls herself..."not very fast" has been learning the art of vaulting.
Available online at: http://fiberbenders.com/NON_girls2005.htm

Julianne went to a summer camp of Lance's, before beginning with another coach. Julianne and her mother drove several days a week to get to practice throughout the fall and subsequent winter with this new coach, putting their hearts and souls into getting her to jump higher. We are talking three days a week of practicing for MONTHS to get to be a 12-6 vaulter. And then this guy Lance just up and takes credit for her success. Julianne's mother emailed in and said she had tried to get Lance to take down that information, but he had not responded to her and "short of legal action" she did not know what to do.

I have personally seen athletes competing on fiberbender poles Lance brings to meets for athletes with weight labels removed and re-affixed in higher locations (sometimes the very top of a pole). Any good coach and athlete knows Spirit pole-labels are ALWAYS six inches down from the top. Seeing a label moved to the very tip top is discouraging. Often times he gets away with it because officials do not know any better. This is outright cheating!

I say buyer beware. I hope he changes for the better of the sport.