what different models are out there

[vaulter870]

thank you tim i was actually waiting for you to post here! i know that you of all people would have the information that i was lookng for

[vault3rb0y]

Very interesting posts... when you say you are backing up your claims, does that mean you are researching the biomechanics and physics of the double-legged and power vault models? If so, try not to get discouraged and take your time, but that sounds like one of the most interesting studies ive ever heard about. I would love to see comparisons of energy conversions at different points throughout the different vault models. It doesnt matter to me which is most "energy efficient", they are all pretty fun .

[altius]

vaulter 870 -dont get your hopes up too high that Tim will provide the answers you are looking for. Because I have considerable respect for his enthusiasm and his intellect I think that eventually -sooner rather than later - he will accept the advantages of the petrov/Bubka model over the hodgepodge of approaches and methods which have been -and unfortunately still are -used by many very talented vaulters.

At this point I would simply note out that pole vaulting is only distantly related to gymnastics, ice dancing and ballet so the beauty of the movement is only relevant to the extent that form follows function.
I resepct the dedication and talent of the great athletes who have not used the Petrov model but feel sorry that they were never able to fulfil their potential.

If you are genuinely looking for some answers go to BeginnertoBubka.com and read the article on four stages of energy input. If you dont do so, i can only assume that you are only looking for answers which confirm your present bias towards a range of different - unfortunately less efficient - approaches to vaulting.

[gtc]

that is the way that most people describe them as either swing or power. i am still curious if someone can give a good explaination of the the power model

See Texas pole vault manifesto!

I could not disagree more. This is not a good explanation of the power vault. Look at Paul Burgess and you will appreciate this fact.

You are right! Someone needs to write an Oklahoma pole vault manifesto! to do it justice

[SlickVT]

vaulter 870 -dont get your hopes up too high that Tim will provide the answers you are looking for. Because I have considerable respect for his enthusiasm and his intellect I think that eventually -sooner rather than later - he will accept the advantages of the petrov/Bubka model over the hodgepodge of approaches and methods which have been -and unfortunately still are -used by many very talented vaulters.

At this point I would simply note out that pole vaulting is only distantly related to gymnastics, ice dancing and ballet so the beauty of the movement is only relevant to the extent that form follows function.
I resepct the dedication and talent of the great athletes who have not used the Petrov model but feel sorry that they were never able to fulfil their potential.

If you are genuinely looking for some answers go to BeginnertoBubka.com and read the article on four stages of energy input. If you dont do so, i can only assume that you are only looking for answers which confirm your present bias towards a range of different - unfortunately less efficient - approaches to vaulting.

I'm gonna leave the MANY clever comments I have about this series of posts out for now.


Alan - I think what almost everyone on here who is not an all-or-nothing Petrov follower is trying to say that yes, the Petrov model is, in theory, the most efficient vaulting model out there. You have stamped that in your book and we pretty much all accept that. Congrats.
However, efficiency in this case is assuming that humans act as perfect pendulums like in a physics laboratory. We do not act that way in the physical world we live in. An example of what I am trying to say because I am an electrical engineer: Light bulbs. Theoretically, the current flowing into the coil should produce 60 watts of power. IMPERFECTIONS in the material and LOSSES cause the light bulb to be only 20% efficient.

What I am trying to get at is the robustness of the model. In the real world, implementing the Petrov model is quite a bit harder than writing about it, and sometimes people have to stray from that for one of many reasons. The imperfections in the vault can come from a lack of perfect coaching, not enough repetitions, and losses come from improper positions and the human body not acting like a perfectly rigid pendulum.
Therefore, the vaulter strays, and learns the "unfortunate" way that happens to be the best they can do. Sad. The result is a few people who implement the model and alot who try to implement it, and do their best. In time, good vaulters rise to the top, like Toby and Derek and Gibilisco, and they have found a way to become world class without implementing the Petrov model.

I applaud Tim for researching these models, because it would be nice to know about them as well. Its not blasphemy.

[vault3rb0y]

I'm gonna leave the MANY clever comments I have about this series of posts out for now.


Alan - I think what almost everyone on here who is not an all-or-nothing Petrov follower is trying to say that yes, the Petrov model is, in theory, the most efficient vaulting model out there. You have stamped that in your book and we pretty much all accept that. Congrats.
However, efficiency in this case is assuming that humans act as perfect pendulums like in a physics laboratory. We do not act that way in the physical world we live in. An example of what I am trying to say because I am an electrical engineer: Light bulbs. Theoretically, the current flowing into the coil should produce 60 watts of power. IMPERFECTIONS in the material and LOSSES cause the light bulb to be only 20% efficient.

What I am trying to get at is the robustness of the model. In the real world, implementing the Petrov model is quite a bit harder than writing about it, and sometimes people have to stray from that for one of many reasons. The imperfections in the vault can come from a lack of perfect coaching, not enough repetitions, and losses come from improper positions and the human body not acting like a perfectly rigid pendulum.
Therefore, the vaulter strays, and learns the "unfortunate" way that happens to be the best they can do. Sad. The result is a few people who implement the model and alot who try to implement it, and do their best. In time, good vaulters rise to the top, like Toby and Derek and Gibilisco, and they have found a way to become world class without implementing the Petrov model.

I applaud Tim for researching these models, because it would be nice to know about them as well. Its not blasphemy.

That makes perfect sense to me. For instance, what if a person doesnt have the physical ability to perform an aspect of the petrov model well, yet if he/she follows another model that can use his/her physical build to their advantage, maybe it would work better for them. Im not saying they will go as high as if they could use the petrov model, but its using their certain skills to their advantage. I hope thats what you are saying, because thats what i got out of it.
-J

[polevaulter08nw]

i found this and thought it was interesting.

http://www.thevault.prv.pl/

click on the first thing, its a video.

[polevaulter08nw]

the free take off is implemented and shown well in it!


and dang it, it doesn't take you to the site i wanted! ill figure out a way to get it, but it shows lobinger and bubka side by side jump on a computer model.

[altius]

Note that Gibilisco was coached by Petrov from the age of 16 until last year so that there is little doubt that he was employing the petrov model. The observable differences between his technique and that of Bubka are differences in STYLE not TECHNICAL MODEL. In the same way it is easy to pick differences in STYLE between Bubka and Tarasov, Trandenkov, Markov, Feofanova, Pyrek -who also trains regularly with Petrov, Rogowska, Burgess -whose original coach Steve Rippon was and is a proponent of the Soviet model and whose present coach Alex Parnov is from the Soviet system - Isinbyeva - although now she is working with Petrov those differences will be minimised - especially in her take off where she is no where as good as Bubka.

[vaultman18]

Alan obviously you are not aware of our national policy of never admit your wrong.
Why teach/learn something that is not the very best way. Most models allow you to reach early success but give you nothing in the long run. Everyone I was around early in my vault career said the same thing only Bubka can vault that way because he is special. In fact I still hear it. Alan has given our community the best resource possible yet some or even most ignore it and claim there is something better. So I say put up or shut up. My biggest fear is that Alan will get tired of this and never return to this board or the US and we will lose a great rsource.

[vaulter870]

i am not saying that at all. i simply want to know things like what tim is working on. i know about the petrov model and all the science that goes with it. and i didnt start this thread to get into an arguement or anything like that. i have the upmost respect for alan and his book he has done a marvalous job with it. i just want to know more about these other models that have been used in the past and even today to know how to help my vaulter get away from them and into the petrov model so that he can reach his full potential! so please dont take it as i am saying that alan and his book and the petrov model are wrong. i think that they are right. i just want to have a better understanding of the other ways that people jump.

[vaultman18]

Everyone here would be much better served studying how to implement the Petrov model rather than learning about the wrong way. It is not practical to waste time and energy learning anything other than the Petrov model and Alan has done a big chunk of the work for you. I just don't understand why anyone would waste their time. I see that Tim is doing the research but I suspect he will come to find out he can't support his theory. If he some how does I will be the first to "eat crow".