what different models are out there

[dj]

hey

i think peter mcginnis might have the numbers we could compare line for line... maybe we could get him to send us tim's 5.90 jump and one of bubka's he has filmed with high speed and printed the data..

from my own analysis... i show OK speed on the runway for Tim of 9.6/9.7 MPS last 6 steps, but not as fast as bubka...

but from takeoff to maximum bend (.49 seconds) and from takeoff to maximum height of his COM.. 1.43ish.... tim's continuation "through" the takeoff and swing was as fast or faster than bubka...(distance x time) which indicates high energy IN to maximum bend and high energy UP... with the result being pole speed, penetration and a high vault above a handgrip of 16-4/4.95 ish

this may not explain it in conventional terms... but how do we determine how much energy bubka creates? then we can do a comparison..

of course we can "look" and say time was lacking in some areas... but we need to look at how he produced the result that he did with what is consisdered a poor takeoff.. and slower speed... somewhere he created energy that we may be overlooking or he would not have cleared the bar...

dj

[altius]

'i show OK speed on the runway for Tim of 9.6/9.7 MPS last 6 steps, but not as fast as bubka...".

My understanding is that Bubkas speed over the last 5 metres was usually in the range 9.6 - 9.8 m/sec and that his fastest measured/recorded run was on a 5.70m jump.

Speed through the phases of the vault would be a reflection of grip height and pole stiffness and so not be an indication of the total energy going into the vaulter/pole system. Assuming similar weight of both vaulters -and I suspect that Tim would be at least as heavy as Sergeis reported 77kg - that that becomes an issue re the relative efficiency of their techniques.

I sincerely hope we dont go back to that old theme that Bubka jumped high merely because he was faster and stronger than everyone else because that is simply not the case. It is not true that run up speed is not THE critical factor in performance. Very important but not critical. For example a swedish vaulter was recorded at 10.01m/sec but achieved nothing with the vault. But as always folk will believe what they want to believe.

[dj]

hey

i'm not trying to say speed is the only factor..

i believe your model is the best.. but i also believe.. based on his comparitive speed he created "energy" or results on the pole that were greater than bubka.. from "lift' off to maximum height....and of course because of the bending pole, and shortening and lengthing of the swing radius...

more later

got practice....

dj

[Tim McMichael]

In the interest of striking while the iron is hot I want say that I am almost finished with the "Oklahoma Pole Vault Manifesto." I will try to post it tonight.

[B]

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject:

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To keep the discussion going I would suggest that one of the reasons that Tim gripped relatively low was that his technique -not his lack of speed - limited his ability to grip higher.

DJ I would love to see a detailed statement - ideally in energy terms -where you think Tims technique was superior to Sergei's.


Alan and Dave:
Good Day to You Vault Gurus!
I am a very infrequent viewer and contibutor, but your comparison of Mack/Bubka caught my attention.

Let me take a stab at this:
I think DJ's point is that Tim could be considered to have superior efficiency on the pole because of his excellent swing speed and Pushoff. DJ has timed numerous world class jumps and his research has shown that Tim in 2004 was superior in this respect, even to Bubka. Somewhere on pole vault power Becca has a chart prepared by Vitaly which lists the parameters of the 6 meter club. A reporter emailed this chart to me and the data confirms that Mack was superlative of the group in the pushoff data. Tim's pushoff in his PR jump was 121 cm (best of the group), Bubka's was 117cm on his wr jump. (speed and efficiency of vault above grip are parameters worth considering)

Addressing your comments about his inability to grip higher:
You are correct that, of the data presented to me, Tim does not grip as high as Bubka(5.00m v 518m) and this is attributed to technical inconsistencies in his transition and plant. We are aware of this and continue to improve, but the 5.90 vault to which Dave is referring was a good example of run, transition and plant and was easily a 6m jump. The jump immediately proceeding this one at 5.85m was a make but had an under step and he got caught pretty good, and had he been gripping higher would not have been succesful. So grip is also determined by the efficient handgrip corresponding to the parameters of run and plant. Example: Mack could have gripped 10cm higher on the first jump described, but could not have on the second. One must match up the variables to be consistent.

Well, this is a very short response to your discussion.
For the sake of further discussion, lets flip your question: Give me a detailed statement regarding where you think Sergei's technique is superior to Tim's. (maybe Dave can send you a copy of the vault we have discussed)(You are correct, running faster and holding higher will not be a satisfactory technical response)

You guys are the best!
As my 6 year Old Daughter Gracie Says: Peace Out Daddyo!
B



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[B]

Alan, Dave, and any other interested parties:

Since this is a technique forum-

Before I leave for dinner, I thought I would get the ball rolling by by giving a response to my own query. (Talking to yourself is a sign of old age maybe.)

In my best Aussie tone I would say something like, "Mack is inconsistent in securing a free takeoff-without a free takeoff he wastes energy bending the pole before he leaves the ground and is inferior to Bubka."

This is a start to the discussion and a result at best. What else do you have?

B

PS--Say hi to the Buckeyes for me. My Dad is an alum, and former adjunct faculty member there, and I was born at the University hospital in Columbus. They are my second favorite team, and I have sure had to eat a lot of crow since their latest football showing vs. the Southeastern Conference. Go Bucks.

[Soar Like an Eagle]

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To keep the discussion going I would suggest that one of the reasons that Tim gripped relatively low was that his technique -not his lack of speed - limited his ability to grip higher.

DJ I would love to see a detailed statement - ideally in energy terms -where you think Tims technique was superior to Sergei's.


Alan and Dave:
Good Day to You Vault Gurus!
I am a very infrequent viewer and contibutor, but your comparison of Mack/Bubka caught my attention.

Let me take a stab at this:
I think DJ's point is that Tim could be considered to have superior efficiency on the pole because of his excellent swing speed and Pushoff. DJ has timed numerous world class jumps and his research has shown that Tim in 2004 was superior in this respect, even to Bubka. Somewhere on pole vault power Becca has a chart prepared by Vitaly which lists the parameters of the 6 meter club. A reporter emailed this chart to me and the data confirms that Mack was superlative of the group in the pushoff data. Tim's pushoff in his PR jump was 121 cm (best of the group), Bubka's was 117cm on his wr jump. (speed and efficiency of vault above grip are parameters worth considering)

Addressing your comments about his inability to grip higher:
You are correct that, of the data presented to me, Tim does not grip as high as Bubka(5.00m v 518m) and this is attributed to technical inconsistencies in his transition and plant. We are aware of this and continue to improve, but the 5.90 vault to which Dave is referring was a good example of run, transition and plant and was easily a 6m jump. The jump immediately proceeding this one at 5.85m was a make but had an under step and he got caught pretty good, and had he been gripping higher would not have been succesful. So grip is also determined by the efficient handgrip corresponding to the parameters of run and plant. Example: Mack could have gripped 10cm higher on the first jump described, but could not have on the second. One must match up the variables to be consistent.

Well, this is a very short response to your discussion.
For the sake of further discussion, lets flip your question: Give me a detailed statement regarding where you think Sergei's technique is superior to Tim's. (maybe Dave can send you a copy of the vault we have discussed)(You are correct, running faster and holding higher will not be a satisfactory technical response)

You guys are the best!
As my 6 year Old Daughter Gracie Says: Peace Out Daddyo!
B



[/img][/url]

Lets not forget Tim Mack jumped 6.00 meters gripping 16'4" or 16'5" clean. It is on polevaultpower.com videos

[captainfalcon43]

The data that you guys are using is from Buka's WR jump. What if Bubka's WR jump wasn't showing Bubka's full potential? He could have jumped higher, but he was cut short as the result of an achilles tendon injury. Scientists did calculate that Bubka could have jumped something like 20'8"??, or something of the sort. If Bubka's jump could have showed his FULL potential and greatest height that he could have cleared, then the statistics might be different.

[Soar Like an Eagle]

The data that you guys are using is from Buka's WR jump. What if Bubka's WR jump wasn't showing Bubka's full potential? He could have jumped higher, but he was cut short as the result of an achilles tendon injury. Scientists did calculate that Bubka could have jumped something like 20'8"??, or something of the sort. If Bubka's jump could have showed his FULL potential and greatest height that he could have cleared, then the statistics might be different.

Who were the scientists and what was their specialty? If Tim Mack did not have a bad shoulder, he could have jumped higher. He made 6.00 meters with a SLAP Tear (partially torn Labrum) in his right shoulder.

[vaultman18]

soar like an eagle
You can find the info about Bubka's 20'8" in BTB and in the "Pole Vault Manifesto" on this site. Look at this clip of Bubka clearing 6.11m http://www.stabhoch.com/movies/19920713_Bubka_611.mov I don't think anyone has put that much height on any bar over 6m. If you can find it I want to see it so please post it. I like Tim he helped me with my vault career when no one would. No doubt he has earned everything he has ever gotten but he is no Bubka (physically or technically).

[Soar Like an Eagle]

soar like an eagle
You can find the info about Bubka's 20'8" in BTB and in the "Pole Vault Manifesto" on this site. Look at this clip of Bubka clearing 6.11m http://www.stabhoch.com/movies/19920713_Bubka_611.mov I don't think anyone has put that much height on any bar over 6m. If you can find it I want to see it so please post it. I like Tim he helped me with my vault career when no one would. No doubt he has earned everything he has ever gotten but he is no Bubka (physically or technically).

I have seen that jump many times, as well as I have all Bubka’s 20 foot jumps on video. I am just replying to last quote about potential (The data that you guys are using is from Buka's WR jump. What if Bubka's WR jump wasn't showing Bubka's full potential?). I agree Bubka is a great technician, but I also think he had incredible physical tools (10.2 100 meters, 26 foot long jumper and incredible gymnast). Tim Mack, 19’8â€Â

[EIUvltr]

I don't think Bubka actually ever ran a 10.2 in the 100m or long jumped 26 feet, I believe these are kind of urban legends that have been growing over the years. Keenan King was probably faster on the runway that Bubka was, but he obviously didn't jump anywhere near as high. So I'm guessing Bubka's form was probably primarily responsible for his ability to jump high, crazy thought eh?

Riaan Botha was supposedly blazingly fast too, but very inefficient